[itsjust4fun91]

I think that unless you already have symptoms of esrogen dominance, then I would hold off adding progesterone cream until such a time that you begin to feel a strain on your hormones. If you add progesterone to you body when you don't need it yet, it can cause an imbalance all it's own.

I know there were several ladies on the old BN site that wanted to add progesterone cream to their regiment for breast growth but using for the sole purpose of nbe is not reccommended. You can end up with progesterone dominance and yes it will cause some breast swelling when it happens, but it's not permanent nor worth the emotional overload you can put yourself into when misusing progesterone cream.

I used progesterone cream for 2 years when I was told I was going into early perimenopause and it was before I heard of nbe, but take my word for it when I say it needs to be used strictly by direction and only if needed.

Mel

[Ginie]

Thank you, gals, I try to research as much as I can and share with you!

I find BBT charting the most helpful if you want to find out what is wrong with your cycle, for example, if you have any dysfunction or deficiency, etc.

For example, if your chart looks like the first one then it means corpus luteum deficiency - your body is not producing enough progesterone.

If your chart looks like the second one - this is progesterone AND estrogen deficiency!

Added the third chart - high temperature in the first phase means estrogen deficiency.

I recommend anyone do basal body temperature (BBT) charting. At least you will have something to show your doctor. I so do hate our "medical industry" where nobody cares! For example, I had to work really hard to convince my doctor to take my tests.. I brought her tons of charts, books (yes!), written description of my symptoms, so on. Finally she agreed.. I turned out to to have a mild estrogen-progesterone deficiency. Surprise! I knew it before she knew it!

But since I started BO my symptoms were almost gone (no night sweats, PMS, cramps). I wonder what will happen now when I'm off it.

As for NBE I will investigate more around what that doctor says (above) about estrogen receptors! I definately think that this is the core of the problem! There's enough estogen floating around but stupid receptors don't "see" them! Or there're not enough of those guys (receptors) in the breast tissue! I do believe it is possible to either increase the quantity of receptors or to make them more sensitive to estrogen. This doctor believes it too

[Ginie]

I have to tell you what I just heard from a chinese old old doctor! This is hilarious but you have to bare with me

I go to their clinic to have a special massage, this is the only thing that helps my back. Anyways, he can diagnose from just feeling puls, looking at your tongue, eyeballs, hands, nails, all sort of weird stuff, you know I of course have to mention that he's never been wrong about anything (about my health condition). First time I saw him I just couldn't believe what I heard! A guy without any blood tests, ultrasound, and other fancy stuff "normal" doctors use, told me everything correctly! It took me few years to actually believe this is possible! I know, I'm not easily convinced!

Anyways, he was there today and we talked about.. breats! He says breasts and ovaries (in traditional chinese medicine) are one organ. They function under Pituitary-Hypothalamus "instruction". We can not "fix" ovaries by treating ovaries! That was my first shock. The second one was when I told him about developing breasts way after puberty he said it is possible but "why whould anyone want it? the normal size is B and not bigger! Anything bigger indicates abnormality in this or another way usually relating to Pituitary-Hypothalamus system!" To say that I was shocked is the least of it! So now big boobs are "abnormality"?? In spite of me almost laughing he was insisting - girls developing big breasts in puberty usually have what he called "disbalance" in this ovary-pituitary-hypothalamus thing! Which in later years will lead to either weight gain, blood pressure problem, infertility (!), and many other bad things! Well, I wanted to go on and mentioned to him that in my opinion 90% of women have big breasts nowdays. Does this mean something is wrong with them?

Also realized that I forgot to answer some questions.
Hi, Raw :-) You're taking BO together with pituitary, so, theoretically you don't have to add fennel or other prolactin-increasing hearbs, I think. Because you already stimulate your pituitary. But of course you never know in which way you "stimulate" it, right? :-) Also, increasing prolactin (if is normal already) is pretty risky. But yes, in my opinion increasing prolactin means faster results. Manipulating estrogen only is just not enough.

Hi A-2-C I agree with itsjustforfun, you need to make sure you really need this extra progesterone. I suggest either tests or doing BBT charting to find out yourself! I have never heard of progesterone dominant thing though, I don't think it exists because progesterone is a precursor for other hormones. Extra progesterone is converted to estrogen or testosterone. and THAT we know can lead to problems. Cysts is just one of them. But at the same time it is said that

"Using transdermal progesterone does *not* raise other hormone levels. Progesterone made by the ovary converts to other hormones, but progesterone from cream does not." http://www.natural-progesterone-advisory...m/candida/

I wonder how this could be true if they claim that progesterone from cream is bio-identical to the real progesterone! Confusing?

So be careful and try and find out what your body really needs. It may look like a mission-impossible but in the end it's all worth it!

[A-2-C]

I find BBT charting the most helpful if you want to find out what is wrong with your cycle, for example, if you have any dysfunction or deficiency, etc.
For example, if your chart looks like the first one then it means corpus luteum deficiency - your body is not producing enough progesterone.
If your chart looks like the second one - this is progesterone AND estrogen deficiency!
Added the third chart - high temperature in the first phase means estrogen deficiency.

And would "ideal" chart look like? Thanks!

[A-2-C]

As for NBE I will investigate more around what that doctor says (above) about estrogen receptors! I definately think that this is the core of the problem! There's enough estogen floating around but stupid receptors don't "see" them! Or there're not enough of those guys (receptors) in the breast tissue! I do believe it is possible to either increase the quantity of receptors or to make them more sensitive to estrogen. This doctor believes it too

I read earlier today that with estrogen/progesterone balance, body increases its sensitivity to the lower of them. And also that too much estrogen shuts down your estrogen receptors (partially). Eh... now the question becomes: how do we achieve the best (for NBE) hormonal balance and maintain in thoughout the cycle? I guess, this is what we are here for.

[Ginie]

In the first phase of your cycle (before ovulation) it should be low and and after ovulation - higher. Also the shift indicates the ovulation. You can find many examples, here's one of them: http://www.fertilityplus.org/faq/bbt/bbtfaq.html

You're right - hormonal balance and "balance for NBE" are two different things And, in my opinion, both are not that difficult to achieve. The problem is to know what type of disbalance you have. Only tests will give the answer. Or you can try and do other things (if going to a doctor is out of the question) - BBT charting, listening to your body, writing down your symptoms, so on.

There're many opinions on whether it's the estrogen or progesterone or prolactin or cortisol or growth hormon or.. I believe it's the combination of them all. We will never know for sure but we can experiment and find out for ourselves. Just remember to safe when you're "experimenting"!

Imagine what will happen if you try to increase your estrogen while you're estrogen dominant! But getting rid of this "dominance" thing might be the answer in this case!

For example, I experimented with herbs for few months. They were only increasing estrogen (bloating, water retension) and all the "growth" was gone after the period.

I "experimented" with progesterone cream. Wow, there came my boobs and the growth stayed!

I experimented with BO. I think I gained half a cup or even more but it's hard to say what did what because after two months on it I added NB.

Now I think that it takes both - progesterone and estrogen to grow boobs. This is why my next theory is to work with both of them but each one for its own part of the cycle (estrogen - first half, progesterone - second half).

I haven't made up my mind about Maca though.

[onicemile]

when I told him about developing breasts way after puberty he said it is possible but "why whould anyone want it? the normal size is B and not bigger! Anything bigger indicates abnormality in this or another way usually relating to Pituitary-Hypothalamus system!" To say that I was shocked is the least of it! So now big boobs are "abnormality"?? In spite of me almost laughing he was insisting - girls developing big breasts in puberty usually have what he called "disbalance" in this ovary-pituitary-hypothalamus thing!

This is an interesting point because i've already noticed in my entourage three big-boobed girls (D cup and more with skinny bodies) who have health problems, like a lot of allergies, frequent illness, and one of them often breaks her bones ! I always wondered if those boobs were a 'symptom' of that weakness, or a side effect due to medication..

Also, like others, I wanted to congrat you for your trip and your posts, you always do a lot of research and share your knowledge with us, it's such a pleasure to read you. Thank you and good luck on your routine

[Ginie]

Thank you, mileonice! I really try to put as much information as I gather.

Now I'm just popping up to say that I will be changing my routine. Will start with PM. As soon as I get all my supplements my routine should look like this:

Follicular phase:PM pill, PM cream, placenta, hyaluronic acid, collagen, MSM, Aumenti, vitamin C, whey protein shake, calcium (I will try to drink as much Contrex as I can but it doesn't taste very good).

Luteal phase:Placenta, Hyaluronic acid, collagen, MSM, Aumenti, Vitamin E, progesterone cream, whey protein shake, maybe PM cream but I'm not sure about this one.

The goal is to monitor my basal temperature too but I know this is the difficult one because it's hard to keep the exact schedule (waking up at the same time every day). Knowing exact day of ovulation is important because I should not take PM pills after ovulation. I think this was the mistake many girls here have done and messed up their cycles. They were taking PM for 15 days and then break for 15 days and so on. I believe this is wrong because we should work with our body's "schedule". Not everyone is ovulationg on day 15. The only way to know for sure is either taking ovulation tests or BBT monitoring. As I already spent a lot on NBE I should stick to monitoring my temperature.

Anyways, I will try and follow those Japanese girls' routines as close as I can. I have ordered japanese amino collagen, pig placenta (not sold in Europe). Was thinking about ordering 100% pueraria but the price scared me off :-) That was the brand the japanese girls were using. I understand it muct be the best but I can't afford it. Instead I ordered St.Herb. The dosage is another BIG BIG question. My common sence tells me that 400mg of PM daily is enough. Though St.Herb guys are saying 800mg! And most people here are taking anything from 800mg to 1500mg!! I think I will start with 200mg twice a day.

Oh, and just wanted to add that maybe anyone who is getting off the BO should not do it in a middle of a cycle. I ran out of BO few days before my period and immediately got spotting (beige color). I think it would have been better to quit when the period came.

[soonenough]

Love reading your posts, so informative. I've never ever paid attention to follicular/luteal phase of my period. Thanks for all the info.

BTW, what PM pill and cream did you buy?

Thanks.

[Ginie]

Thanks! I ordered both St.Herb and Robust (Siriporn). St. Herb is more expensive, Robust is cheaper. The notorious Carlaa here kinda "recommends" it (though she never openly says it) by saying that Pueraraprem (this is the ingrediend in Robust) is one of the finest (potent) on the market. I just ordered both because I want to compare and make my own decision. Probably you will agree that NBE journey very quickly teaches us not to take anybody's word for it. Besides, Carlaa or her husband are in the industry, so, who knows why these "recommendations".

St.Herb arrived first, so I started with it. The cream has parabens in it unfortunately.

Regarding phases of the cycle - I believe we should work with our bodies, not against them. The dominating hormone in luteal phase is progesterone, so if we overload our system with estrogen at this time I think there will be trouble. Which in the end will be bad for health and for NBE because NBE success depends on hormonal balance. I'm sure this disbalance is the reason some women don't develop breasts. So why making it worse? Anyway, this is the theory I will test on myself.