[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Shortcake,

I just wanted to add some input from and experienced acne prone person, I am 48yrs old and started breaking out at age 21 and that was after being on BCP for 8 months then stopped cause I got acne and cysts and havent stopped until I cut down sugar really really low that means fruits too but now I can eat them I couldnt even eat fermented foods, I cut carbs down and did herbs and supps.. that was about 4 yrs ago, acne was gone, one or two that was it, then went to eating and such like old days and it all came back, since doing NBE it is combo of hormones and foods, anyway when I started NBE or any big change I broke out alot, it looks like you just started your new regimen so your body has alot going on, also some supps. at like a detox and can make it worse before it gets better, and until you find the right hormone balance..it sounds like your doing good, be patient, the stress will only break you out more..hey I just started doing at home chemcial peels and seeing nice changes too, they to make things worse but you can see the changes nicely working, like my skin looks more even and acne scars looking better and it help declog pores and make them go away in a few days, I also use some of the peels in my washes and that helps too..when it starts looking better I will post before and after pics., I also add a rotation of EFA..its on my program thread.. I will also let you know if my new program is working for titas, booty, waist, hair, skin, etc...I hope I helped some..so my bottomline is when making changes to your body it can effect your skin, think about it if your body is detoxing there are a few places the body eliminates toxins, skin, pee, poo, sweat..I think that is it..ok done

[shortcake]

Tibetan and Beachbum,

Thanks so much to both of you for stopping in again! It helps so much to get that added encouragement and help!

Unfortunately I think I've come to the conclusion that BO just isn't for me at this time. In addition to all of the symptoms I've previously posted, I felt some slight cramping going on yesterday. Didn't think much of it at all but later noticed that I had some dark-colored spotting going on. It was very light and I only noticed it once but it was enough to make me concerned. I'm also still battling the breakouts on my chin. The breakout area is smaller and much less swollen, but there's still one spot that just does not want to heal. It's gotten to the point where I'm taking antibiotics to hopefully help my body fight that infection. Added to that, I decided that I would try taking the Swanson's BO by itself to test out my theory that maybe it would be better for me. It seems like in some ways it might be, but my stomach has gotten crampy and slightly bloated feeling again, so I guess I don't tolerate it very well. I would love to give BO another chance right now and try BB, but I just can't afford it.

So I've decided that my next step will be to do something similar to what you're both doing now. I'm going to take PM (Ainterol) in very small doses along with using a PM cream (Ro-bust) and try to figure out a cycling program that will work for me. I may just use the cream for the first cycle and see where that takes me - at this point I would be thrilled with just some firmness and fullness. And since I seem to be very sensitive to these hormones, maybe that alone would give me some results.

Susan, what you said about acne really makes sense and I'm wondering if my acne problem isn't at least partially due to my change in eating habits. Throughout my cycle I was eating perfectly normally. But the week before my period started, when I'd normally get my PMS cravings, I started craving lots of chocolate, sugary drinks, and other sweets that I don't normally ever crave anymore. That's more typical of when I was a teenager, which I suppose make sense since BO is supposed to put you back into a second puberty. The thing is, I never had these breakouts at that time. Obviously my body is tolerating it differently now! I should have controlled myself better and not indulged my cravings. I'm actually still having them even now, just not AS bad. You're right though, diet plays a huge role in it, and now I know that I must control that!

Thanks again to both of you!

___________________________________________________

Update:

As I mentioned to tibetan and Susan, I'm quitting BO. My last dose was yesterday afternoon. It's funny how I felt so great on BO until my period came! I really wish I could try BB but I guess it's just not meant to be right now.

I will be ordering loose PM powder from Ainterol and Ro-bust cream from Siriporn. Still debating whether I might just try the cream by itself for the first cycle. I'm trying to devise a cycling program that might help me prevent all the bad side-effects I ALWAYS experience during my period. The biggest thing I need to fix is the horrible headache and overwhelmingly tired feeling I have the day after my period ends. I've had that with every single NBE program I've done. There's gotta be a way to prevent that... I'm sure I'll have to ask some questions on here as to how I might go about doing that, and how much PM I should start off taking. I'm going to start veeerrrrry low.

As for my boobs, they're looking and feeling much smaller to me. I feel like I'm swimming in my bras and it's hard for me to imagine back when I was on BCPs and was completely filling them out. Measurements are fluctuating between 30" and 30 1/2" which is weird. I guess the one good thing about not having really experienced drastic results with any of this so far is that once I have to stop taking it and switch programs, there's not much for me to lose and feel bad about!

For now, I will be starting a Milk Thistle cleanse and will begin taking Dandelion Root. I will also start drinking some body detox tea. I know it's not very potent but it's better than nothing, I suppose. I will be continuing my cocoa butter massages and Noogleberry.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Shortcake,

I mentioned in my program thread that I stopped PM but not to you here.. I change just about everything but maca and some supps.. so far what I am doing now is better..since been off PM and taking maca, FG, tumeric, flaxseed, some FN I have noticed more going on with the titas as with PM I didnt get much feelings in them except the first week..with what I am doing now I am feeling things happening..waiting on the other herbs I mentioned in my program thread with other supps...I felt keeping it simple and trying to get most of my vits and minerals etc from food too..I believe that the herbs have alot of good nutrients that many people might not realize..whatever you decide on start out slow cause when I didnt I had break outs too..as for the antibiotics you should take probiotics too.. there are herbs that are like antibiotics naturally IMO that are better.. I took prescribed antibiotics way back and they didnt help me personally..trust me I went to a ton of skin docs and they made my skin worse and my body felt like hell..once I started the herbs and supps and diet I seen BIG improvement.. IMO I think your taking too many things and it is messing you up .. when I was on PM I too had the chin break outs too ..maca helps me with break outs too..I cant handle SP..anyway..just go slow girl..I did the same as you and broke out alot..using to many things too fast and too much can make it worse..oh another thing is you might want to do a colon cleanse when I did that I cleared up evenually and my tummy was pretty flat..just some extra info..

[shortcake]

Susan, I'm glad you're feeling so much better! It's great that you've found herbs that will not only grow your boobs but will benefit you in other ways as well! Ideally that's what I'd love to have. If PM doesn't work out for me I'll be going the same route you are. I've been down this road enough times to know which herbs I can and can't tolerate, and will just have to pick and choose which ones might help with boob growth and also maybe help with other health issues.

I very much agree that I was taking too much stuff! There were so many times I wanted to simplify my program, only to end up adding something else to either combat a negative side-effect I was experiencing or to hopefully boost growth results. So in the end I ended up with way more than what I'd intended. With PM I'm definitely going to take no more than I have to/need to. Not only does it mess up my system; I get tired of swallowing so many pills too! A note on the colon cleanse... I've been wanting to do one for so long now but - I feel like a total dork admitting this - I'm scared to! I'm not quite sure why... I guess I'm a little afraid I'll end up with bad stomach cramps or pain and not be able to leave the bathroom for days! lol! But I do need to just do it. It would make me feel so much better, I'm sure. I'll continue to read your progress in your program!! Best of luck!

________________________________________________________

Just a quick update on how I've been feeling. A few days after I stopped taking everything I started experiencing a horrible headache. The second day it ended up nearly as bad as the dreaded day-after-period-ends headache. It was very strange and not really at any significant point in my cycle. I can only assume it had to do with hormone levels changing due to not having the steady supply of BO in my system anymore. After that, I've felt lots better. I've been having loads of tingling, burning, and aches/pains in my breasts which seems to mostly be due to the MSM and Dandelion. Interesting! No soreness or fullness or anything though. The other day I measured just for the heck of it and I was back down to 30" across bust. I've really been focusing on pumping though the last few days and have been getting pretty awesome swelling that lasts for quite a while. I need to visit the Noogleberry forum more often! I get so encouraged and inspired to pump when I do. I won't measure again until I start my new program, just for beginning stats purposes.

I've had a change of plans for my next program - instead of taking Ainterol I'm going to be taking Siriporn. I received my order from them today and instead of sending me the Ro-Bust lotion I'd ordered they sent a bottle of their PM pills! So I guess that's that. I just hope it's not too strong for me and more likely to cause negative side-effects. I'm definitely going to take it slow and take it in very small amounts to begin with. I'm thinking just 50mg a day to start with, to gauge how it makes me feel. The most I'll probably take during my first cycle on it, on my peak days, will probably just be 100mg. This bottle of pills will last me forever!

[shortcake]

I'm noticing some strange things going on! Yesterday I noticed that my nipples felt sore and sensitive. Today I woke up and my breasts were both sore. Now it's mostly just the right (smaller) one that's sore, but it really is quite sore. More so than it ever was while on WU or BO (this time around). And both nipples are still sore and sensitive.

I'm not sure if this is due to what I'm taking, which is just my Neo-Cell collagen that I've been taking for about 3 or 4 months now, the MSM which I've been taking for a month and a half, or the new addition of Dandelion Root and Milk Thistle. I've taken Milk Thistle in the past lots of times for liver cleanses before though and it never had that effect. I've been Noogling a bit longer and more frequently, but I was doing it for at least two hours a day for a couple months in the summer and never got sore from it or anything. Or maybe it's just due to my coming down from BO... Maybe my hormones are at just the right level to cause soreness. My period isn't due to start for another week and a half - and that's if it's on time - so I don't think that's it. I haven't been getting soreness before a period lately anyway.

I'm having a bit of a headache right now that feels like a hormone headache. It started a little while after taking the Milk Thistle, which I suspected was causing slight headaches before.

I can tell that something is making a difference in my breasts - whether it's what I'm taking, the extra pumping, or where my hormones are at from the BO - because the size difference between my left and right breast is more pronounced now. So I'm pumping my right breast for 30 minutes longer than the left each time I do it. I might measure at the end of the week out of curiosity.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Shortcake,

OK..you know milk thistle cleanses the liver obviously well so is dandelion..what I think is the headache is from toxins..just my opinion..when did you add dandelion? and if your not drinking enough water and your digestive system is slow it will slow down empting the toxins and they come out of the skin too..either stop or reduce the herbs for liver or do something to get ride of the toxins.. cause if giving your self stuff to up your hormones then try and clean the liver it will recirculate into the blood stream and so on..most herbs like FG, FN, GR, and some others help the liver and digestive system..if you want to milk thistle and dandelion in then up water at least.. also when I said colon cleanse you can do like 1 or 2 days and make a smoothie for cleaning the colon and eat only fruit, veggies, and soups..keep it light..I make up my own..I will probably do that tomorrow..or you can use the tea called smooth move..but be careful with some of the herbs..I use to use the ones that caused pain..never again..its ok to skip a few days of no meat, fish, eggs, chicken.. like tonight I made a protein shake with whey protein, papaya, ground flaxseed, half banana, some soymilk not alot, water, and then I put my hops powder in it. sometimes I put yogurt for probiotics forgot too put it in..oh and wheat germ (toasted).. that and the flax help clean the colon..well hope you feel better soon..hey are you taking EFA's?

[Isabelle]

Could be the milk thistle. Susan found literature saying it's a phyto-estrogen too.

[beachbumbythesea]

Could be the milk thistle. Susan found literature saying it's a phyto-estrogen too.

Hey Isabelle I think dandelion is also a phyto-estrogen. OOps no it isnt I just read it removes excess estrogen from the body..

[shortcake]

Could be the milk thistle. Susan found literature saying it's a phyto-estrogen too.

Hey Isabelle I think dandelion is also a phyto-estrogen. OOps no it isnt I just read it removes excess estrogen from the body..

Susan, this is exactly what I came here to ask! In researching I have found some sites that say it is a phytoestrogen:
http://www.dandelionteastore.com/can-int...east-size/
http://www.menopause-metamorphosis.com/A...rogens.htm

and others that say it merely clears the estrogen receptors:
http://www.breast-enhancement-options.co...herbs.html

while this one states that it's a galactagogue:
http://www.mobimotherhood.org/MM/article-herbal2.aspx

This all has me a little intrigued! Here I've taken WonderUp with some serious sensations in my breasts, but they were never consistant and I never achieved any bit of soreness. I also experienced negative physical side-effects. I then tried BO in which I thought I felt better while taking and did get some sporadic tenderness in my breasts, but felt horrible once my period came and I had bad acne with it. Since beginning what I thought was my break/cleanse I've felt much more balanced, calm (much less anxiety), and have had no bad effects. Instead, it seems I've stumbled on something that's actually having an impact on my breasts. All I'm taking is collagen, MSM, Dandelion, and the occasional Milk Thistle. It's the most simple and basic thing I've done thus far, yet it's having the most effect.

Today not only is my right breast still sore, but my left is now as well. Both nipples are very sore. I measured last night and today and I'm now at 30 1/2", which is a 1/2" increase from not even a full week ago. I never experienced an increase like that with anything else I've taken. I'm by no means claiming it as growth at this point, but it's still a change, and much more of a change than I've had so far from anything else.

I realize the Milk Thistle is a phytoestrogen but I must admit I've taken it very sporadically due to the headaches I get when I combine it with Dandelion. I've taken Milk Thistle in the past for lots of liver cleanses and it's never made me sore before. Also, I've purposely taken them spaced apart and definitely feel more going on in my breasts after taking the Dandelion. So I'm more inclined to think it's due to the Dandelion, or possibly a combination of both. Interesting!

Isabelle, this has got me thinking. I know I've planned on using PM with my next cycle and I may still do that. But I'm wanting to look into this a little further. It seems I may respond best to the "weaker" phytoestrogens, which makes sense since I seem to become estrogen dominant so easily. I know I've called on you a lot to help me with these things so I'm sorry to do it again! But I'm just curious, if I were to go on an individual herb program using some of the weaker herbs, what would you recommend I take? I know hops is out for me, but other than that I think I'm okay with the others. If I were to include Dandelion, Fennel, and Licorice, what else would you think I should add? I've reviewed the list of alternatives to hops you recently posted but I'm just not sure which ones are the strongest and which are weaker. You don't need to put a whole lot of thought into it; I'm really just curious as to what I'd be looking at taking. Also, if you have any input into whether or not Dandelion is actually a phytoestrogen or not, that'd be great to know as well! At this point I'm almost afraid to start taking PM and risk messing up whatever I've got going right now! Not sure what I should do?

Susan,

What you said makes total sense - the headaches could very well be due to the all the toxins being released and cleared. I'm going to do an experiment and cut out the Milk Thistle to see if the headaches go away completely. I'll let you know what happens!

As for EFAs, I've only taken Flaxseed Oil and Borage Oil while on NBE. Does that count?

[Isabelle]

Hi shortcake and Susan,

Flax counts: it's a phyto-estrogen. Some sources say it's more in the fibres than in the oil, but still.

Dandelion is a phyto-estrogen:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=19007317

Milk thistle is a phyto-estrogen too. No wonder you get headaches, certainly if you're prone to estrogen dominance.

I'm a firm believer in simple programs. Why not do a few discontinuation tests? Stop milk thistle, see what happens. Stop flax seed oil, see what happens. Same with MSM and collagen. If the dandelion alone does it for you, keep it up for a few months. Play with the dose, measure, cycle, you know the drill.

If you still experience estrogen dominance on dandelion alone, try a more balanced program. Fennel is a good one to try out how much phyto-progestin you need. Make a whole pot of fennel seed tea from 2,000 mg, keep it in the fridge, and increase the number of cups every day until you get easily irritated. That's a symptom of progesterone toxicity, probably around 8 cups. Decrease to a dose that doesn't give any trouble, and increase dandelion until you get headaches, and go back to a safe dose too.

Then find a single herb that gives you both doses at the same time, and you never have to worry again. Licorice if you get trouble with acne or facial hair, red clover if you don't. I use tables 2 and 3 to compare how much phyto-estrogen and phyto-progestin is in each herb:
http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/estr...tml#table3
Dandelion is not in the tables because those researchers didn't test it. I prefer hops and fennel to balance my doses, because they are pure phyto-estrogen and pure phyto-progestin.

Another approach would be to just try red clover or licorice. If you are still prone to estrogen dominance, shift towards the more progestinic herbs: thyme, or even turmeric. Make sense?