[Dipsi]

Hi Joe,

I am new to this forum and this is my very first post ever. I am in my early thirties and have always had a flat chest (34AA) and heavy bottom. I naturally tend to put on all the weight on my bum and sides of thighs but none on my breasts. That is the last place fat gets deposited in when I really gain a lot of weight. I eat a healthy diet and being underweight is not an issue here. I guess it could be hormonal imbalance with lack of progesterone and estrogen dominance. I am also prone to acne and facial hair and have had a history of irregular cycles. The cycles have been normal lately since I improved my nutrition and added regular exercise including strength training to my lifestyle.

What NBE program would you suggest me to start with? I tried using a herbal cream with phytoestrogens last year for about 2 months with no results. And I have not used anything else ever.

I was also particularly drawn to your recipes but not sure which one would be best for me as I am a newbie with very small cup size. Can you please suggest.

Ideally I would like to start with a safe program that is likely to show results in about 3 months (looking for quicker results I know). And last thing I want is to put on more weight on my hips and thighs by using the wrong program.

Everything I have read so far in your post made a lot of sense and I am really looking forward to your valuable guidance.

Thanks

[surferjoe2007]

Good nutrition is always the safest and most reliable way to go, so you could start with this post: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=23076&pid=177070#pid177070

Since you seem to be estrogen dominant you may want to omit the pueraria mirifica. A hormone test would confirm that you really are estrogen dominant. DHT testosterone leads to acne and facial hair, so 160-320 mg saw palmetto extract can help there. Mint tea can lower testosterone in general, 5g per cup and 2 cups according to the study done on women. More progesterone cream could help lower estrogen too, but it may raise testosterone so vitex alone may be the safer slower way. Or if your acne clears up you can risk a little progesterone cream after that and continue if those issues don't return. Also note that fish oil may raise testosterone and worsen acne slightly temporarily, but long term the fatty acids are good for acne and I'd stick it out. Flax oil can also help with different fatty acids and it may lower testosterone slightly, so it may be good to take both.

Fenugreek seeds might cause weight gain or weight loss, and short term might improve or worsen estrogen dominance. So early on you may want to limit it to be safe then gradually add it in later as you get more balanced. Lowering your testosterone may also go to your thighs a little, especially with estrogen dominance, but it seems like you need to lower your testosterone and I'd stick it out until your estrogen dominance gets better and then less goes to your thighs.

Until everything is fixed up I wouldn't use any phytoestrogens, especially not pueraria mirifica, then after you're more balanced you can gradually add in a little bit.

[rateset]

I read that you recommend taking fenugreek extract containing saponines. There are different types of saponines, I only found the information about diosgenin resulting in growth of mamary tissue, as well as increasing the sensitivity of the receptors etc. Is it only kind of saponine that we need? Also when I search for diosgenin I always find much more yams pills, then fenugreek since the concentration of diosgenin in yams is supposed to be higher, it is very common to find yams pills with 20% diosgenin. I read the concentration of diosgenin in fenugreek seeds is between 0,4-0,8 or something like that. I know that is why you said it is better to take the fenugreek extract than the pills with the powder from the seed.
When it says 50% saponine in fenugreek pills, does it mean different sorts of saponine or only diosgenin? 
How much should I take if it clearly says diosgenin, which it does on my wild yams pills? Also 1000mg Diosgenin?

[surferjoe2007]

I read that you recommend taking fenugreek extract containing saponines. There are different types of saponines, I only found the information about diosgenin resulting in growth of mamary tissue, as well as increasing the sensitivity of the receptors etc. Is it only kind of saponine that we need? Also when I search for diosgenin I always find much more yams pills, then fenugreek since the concentration of diosgenin in yams is supposed to be higher, it is very common to find yams pills with 20% diosgenin. I read the concentration of diosgenin in fenugreek seeds is between 0,4-0,8 or something like that. I know that is why you said it is better to take the fenugreek extract than the pills with the powder from the seed.
When it says 50% saponine in fenugreek pills, does it mean different sorts of saponine or only diosgenin? 
How much should I take if it clearly says diosgenin, which it does on my wild yams pills? Also 1000mg Diosgenin?

Sorry for the delay, I think I was super busy last time I saw this post and then forgot about it.  Other saponins besides diosgenin are helpful too.  Diosgenin just happens to be the most common saponin in fenugreek and wild yam.  The 20% diosgenin pills you are looking at are an extract; wild yam is typically 0.5 to 1.2% diosgenin:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/458952...h-control/ (the article says wild yam doesn't work as birth control btw, just ctrl+F the info on diosgenin)
Likewise you can find fenugreek extracts with up to 50% saponins.  As you can tell that is much stronger than the powder which IIRC is a little under 2% saponins (maybe 0.4-0.8% is diosgenin only?).  50% saponin fenugreek has various saponins which includes diosgenin but also others.  Since diosgenin is the most common saponin in both, you wouldn't be too far off to assume that the strength of diosgenin is similar to the strength of the saponins in general.  It would at least be in the right ballpark.  Beyond that I don't know precisely.

[surferjoe2007]

Recipes
I have a couple recipes.  I was debating whether or not to start a new thread for this but I decided to put it here since it's related to this program.

This is a powder and cream combo that should be used together.  Links are only example sources for convenience; you may buy ingredients from almost anywhere.  Ingredients that must be topical or have a bad taste are in the cream.  Ingredients that would be too bulky or hard to absorb in a cream are kept in the powder.  So it is kept simple, small, relatively pleasant tasting and nice smelling.  It may be used all month without cycling.  Additional PM and/or PC may be cycled while using this combo at the same time, but then a smaller amount should be used because of what's already in the combo.  And you should only use them if you are sure they are good for you, as explained in previous posts.  They might not always be helpful for NBE, and might even be harmful to it.

Likewise as explained earlier you should be in good health before using this combo, with no hormonal problems, no mood or anxiety issues, no metabolic disorders, not hypoglycemic, and at least a B cup before starting (or perhaps a large A for some).


Powder:

• 300 grams 40% saponin shatavari extract : http://www.ebay.com/itm/111622314942 (order 200g + 100g)
  
• 30 grams pueraria mirifica powder, or 1 oz., or about 1/4 cup.  But weighing is more accurate: Many easy to find sources online, take your pick.
  
• 2 oz. vitex powder: http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Vitex-Chaste-Powder-Quality/dp/B00KEW2S4K/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&qid=1448203527&sr=8-24&keywords=vitex+powder
  
• A few silica gel packs: http://www.amazon.com/Dry-Packs-Silica-Gel-10-Pack/dp/B0038MWTTW/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1448205495&sr=8-4&keywords=dessicant&refinements=p_85%3A2470955011 (do not open or consume, of course)
  
• Quart jar or other container.  They're easy to find online or sometimes at supermarkets.
  

Combine in a quart jar and shake.  Take 1-1/4 tsp. a day, dissolved well in liquid.  You may stir, let it sit in liquid for a few minutes and stir again if that's easier for you than long stirring.  If major discomfort occurs amount may be halved, but then be sure to half the cream too.  If major discomfort continues, it might not be a good idea to use this combo at all.

Cream, oil portion:

• 1 oz. cetearyl glucoside : https://www.etsy.com/transaction/1065427047?campaign_label=transaction_buyer_notification&utm_source=transactional&utm_campaign=transaction_buyer_notification_010170_10529880387_0_0&utm_medium=email&utm_content=&email_sent=1442672685&euid=SwaZ-bRiBv8cQ7jp9Cvv0NFdiesd&eaid=30616725645&x_eaid=6f55fd737b (2 orders)
  
• 1.5 oz or 40 grams cocoa butter (A solid 3 tablespoons, more if there is air in the spoon): Many easy to find sources online.  There are other skin uses for the extra and it keeps for a long time.
  
• 1.5 oz or 40 grams flax oil (3 tbsp): Many easy to find sources online.  Can take the extra internally for health.
  
• 1.5 oz o4 40 grams rice bran oil (3 tbsp): Many easy to find sources online.  Can cook with the extra as a super healthy vegetable oil.
  
• 2.5 grams xanthan gum, or about 1 tsp: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014UH7J2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage .  The extra makes a good thickener.  To thicken other creams or sauces thoroughly combine 1/4 tsp gum with a tiny bit of any oil until coated.  Mix with 1 cup of liquid.  Use more for increased thickness.
  
• 2 oz. saw palmetto extract salve 25% fatty acids: http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/...514321/r11
  

Cream, water portion:

• 1-1/3 cup water
  
• 4 oz. progesterone cream: http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-7436-Progesterone-Ounces/dp/B00X2S4RXI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1443383116&sr=8-6&keywords=progesterone+cream .  Also lots of other sources.
  
• 4 oz. hyaluronic acid: http://www.amazon.com/Original-Hyaluronic-Acid-Serum-100%25/dp/B003MJ7Z0O/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1443383641&sr=8-7&keywords=hyaluronic+acid (2 orders)
  
• 37 grams MSM or about 1/2 cup, but weighing is more accurate: Many sources, take your pick.  For the extra you may take up to 1.5 tsp a day internally to build collagen, or save it since it lasts a long time.
  
• 2 tsp. grapefruit seed extract: http://www.amazon.com/Nutribiotic-Liquid-Concentrate-Fluid-Ounce/dp/B0002JHZO8/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1443385042&sr=1-1&keywords=grapefruit+seed+extract . The extra may be used as a preservative in other creams.  Dissolve 0.5%-2% (1/4 to 1 tsp per cup).
  
• Quart jar or other container.  They're easy to find online or sometimes at supermarkets.
  

Cream Directions:
1.  Put a pan on the lowest heat possible.  Drop in oil portion ingredients and stir until xanthan gum is well mixed.
2.  While the solids are melting combine the water portion ingredients in another container.
3.  Stir the oil portion rapidly to help it melt, then remove from heat once fully melted.
4.  Pour oil portion into water portion and mix thoroughly.
5.  Transfer to the jar or jars you wish to store the cream in.  Refrigeration is optional, but might be safer for whatever you don't plan on using this month.

Apply 1 teaspoon a day to the breasts using your finger tips.  Work from outward to inward in a circular motion.  You may use this cream for massage if desired.  If major discomfort occurs amount may be halved, but then be sure to half the powder too.  If major discomfort continues, it might not be a good idea to use this combo at all.  If you want to apply something more later in the day you may use as much of your extra cocoa butter, flax oil and rice bran oil as you like.

Purpose:

• Shatavari: NBE, hormone balancing, cycle maintaining.
  
• PM: NBE.  Kept low to avoid disrupting your cycle or hormones, plus other ingredients help counteract any issues.
  
• Vitex: NBE.  Provides a little added progesterone but only during luteal to maintain your cycle.  Along with the little bit of PC it balances out the little bit of PM.
  
  
• Water: Dissolves cream ingredients.
  
• Cetearyl Glucoside: Allows oil to mix with water.  I made sure to pick a naturally occurring and safe emulsifier with no harmful effects as far as I could find.
  
• Cocoa Butter: Saturated fat gets absorbed and stored for NBE.  Moisturizes to prevent stretch marks.
  
• Flax Oil: Essential fatty acids gets absorbed and stored for NBE.  Moisturizes to prevent stretch marks.  Different fat types from the cocoa butter.
  
• Rice Bran Oil: Preserves these fats so they stay in the breasts longer without leaving.
  
• Xanthan gum: Natural thickener.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: NBE.  Anti-androgen.
  
• PC: NBE.  Balances out the little bit of PM.
  
• Hyaluronic Acid: Collagen, lift, firmness, minor NBE.  Moisturizes to prevent stretch marks.  Swells up in between the collagen rather than forming the collagen itself.
  
• MSM: Collagen forming, lift, firmness, minor NBE.  It's a small amount so you may consume more internally if you like.
  
• Grapefruit seed extract: Preservative.
  

Haven't gotten around to this but I should.  Regarding this recipe.  Geminidoll tried it: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=24717&pid=174233#pid174233
She grew but she also gained weight.  Though this was after a lot of weight loss.

Looking back I think the PM should be cut in half or less, maybe 1/4.  The PC to 1/4 or less, maybe removed if the PM is low enough.  They're relatively low compared to what some use, but still a little high.The shatavari is suspect too.  It might be kept the same or halved.  The other ingredients shouldn't cause weight gain.

Also hyaluronic acid and MSM aren't well absorbed, so they could be taken out along with all the water, cetearyl glucoside and xanthan gum.  Then this becomes an oil and the amount necessary is way less.  Or the cocoa butter, flax oil and rice bran oil may be increased if desired in place of the water.  You can leave it as an oil or if you want an oil based thickener for a salve you can use a little beeswax.  If all water portions are removed then the preservative isn't necessary either, but even if you leave in a little PC you may want a little preservative to be safe.  Oil loves to mold when emulsified with water.

[surferjoe2007]

Hé Joe, I just wondered if theres a reason you mostly only mention nuts and seeds when you talk about (heallthy) nutrition? You never talk about the importance of fruits and veggies...are these inferior in your opinion or do you just go out from the point that everybody's already consuming these?
Thanks, like your thread further only feel that its not complete yet without talking bout other foods as well..

Whole grains and other seeds are primary.  Fruits are minor and should be limited.  Veggies are lesser to grains and other seeds, but second.  Nuts in general aren't particularly good, just the ones listed in that mix are exceptional.  In fact the type of fat in them needs extra fish fat to counterbalance them.  So fruits and veggies are overemphasized when they aren't the majority of a healthy diet.  Exceptions are listed in the next paragraph, in particular spinach is perhaps the best food you could ever eat.  Easily much more varied and higher nutritional content than every single "superfood", powder or pill.   Besides the exceptions the priority is something like: Whole grains/nuts/beans/seeds > fresh veggies > seafood (especially shellfish) > eggs (esp. the yolk) > fresh raw fruit > dairy > farmed meat > pastries / ice cream / etc. > diet soda > candy > sugared soda.  Preserved produce drops far down the list depending on how it was preserved.  Frozen isn't that bad, canning is quite bad (just like excessive cooking), drying is terrible.  Dried fruit is somewhere between pastries and candy.  Dried veggies are close to cardboard; not harmful I guess, but not much good left at all.  Maybe between farmed meat and pastries.  Diet soda is an oddball that in the long run doesn't really act like zero calorie.  Maybe b/c of the way it fools the body?  It acts more like half calorie, which considering how potent a soda is is still quite high.  Especially since they come with zero nutrition.

I found my list of some of the most nutrient dense foods: almonds, bitter melon, brewer's yeast, broccoli, cilantro, endive, escarole, garbanzo beans / hummus, kelp, oysters, parsley, pumpkin seeds, rice bran, sesame seeds / tahini, spinach, spirulina, sunchokes, sunflower seeds, watercress, wheat germ, white, brown or portabello mushrooms.

You can verify all of the above if you google the USDA nutrient database and look them up.

[surferjoe2007]

While I'm at it with nutrition I'd like to correct something I've said before about collagen supplements.  I said they are too little to be helpful, unless you can find them by the scoopful.  Which is true for pills.  Turns out there are many good ones that you can take by the scoopful.  A real food like chicken feet broth is even better because it contains collagen and more, but collagen powder (high sulfur connective tissue protein) is at least a step up from MSM (organic sulfur used to make collagen).

[bettie32]

Hi Surferjoe,

 
First of all, thank you for this thread and for sharing your knowledge with us! Thanks to a lovely lady on here (Zara!), I’m going to start eating pumpkin seeds to lower my DHT. I also noticed it’s one of the ingredients in your nutritious recipe. Do you think eating just a handful of pumpkin seeds a day would be enough to lower DHT? I don’t think I could eat more (they’re kinda difficult to digest…) but do you think consuming too little would be ineffective?  

[surferjoe2007]

Soaking in water per the instructions helps greatly with digestion.

Based on this...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4017725/
...and this...
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/75266?fgcd=&manu=&lfacet=&format=&count=&max=50&offset=&sort=default&order=asc&qlookup=pumpkin+seeds&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=
...even 1/10th of an ounce of pumpkin seeds has enough oil to reduce DHT.  I'm not sure by how much.  The effect in the balding study seemed to be minor.  More than that probably doesn't have much additional effect, if any.

The primary purpose of the pumpkin seeds in the mix is actually for nutrition.

[bettie32]

Soaking in water per the instructions helps greatly with digestion.

Based on this...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4017725/
...and this...
https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/75266?fgcd=&manu=&lfacet=&format=&count=&max=50&offset=&sort=default&order=asc&qlookup=pumpkin+seeds&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=
...even 1/10th of an ounce of pumpkin seeds has enough oil to reduce DHT.  I'm not sure by how much.  The effect in the balding study seemed to be minor.  More than that probably doesn't have much additional effect, if any.

The primary purpose of the pumpkin seeds in the mix is actually for nutrition.

Thank you for your reply and for the links, Surferjoe. 
Yes, I'm soaking the seeds!