[Dynseli]

Before I posted about the worry taking too many FSH stimulating hormones and its possible effects on ovaries' reserves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Follicle-s...FSH_levels mentions that high amounts of FSH can cause premature menopause, and poor ovarian reserve. Abnormally low levels of FSH can also cause problems. It doesn't have citations behind the statements. Feel free to mention supporting evidence.

Spearmint:
Spearmint raises FSH. (reposted link) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...objectonly For this reason, if using mints, don't overdo.

[Dynseli]

Red clover:
Clover can cause shrinkage of the ovaries (or testicles) and infertility, this was shown in gazing mammals and birds. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858001/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3963458/

ZEN:
ZEN is both a mycoestrogen and mycotoxin. (both a fungal estrogen and toxin)
ZEN's effects on fertility and cancer http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2...120811.php

"Using ZEN in animal feed has been associated with a wide range of reproductive anomalies in livestock, including diminished fertility and infertility, reduced litter size and smaller offspring and negative effects on the reproductive organs."
"ZEN can either promote or prevent breast cancer"
It also says zen is an ingredient in some products, and also food products have been spoiled with ZEN in the past.

[Dynseli]

Red clover appeared to do this on animals that mostly feed on it, as a way for the plant to not be overgrazed. I haven't found any studies on it for humans.

Abstract: Plant oestrogens; the cause of decreased fertility in cows. A case report. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6739284

Review: http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/red-clover see section: side effects

http://vein.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/sheepheal...pter7.html see section: Phyto-oestrogenic infertility

Animals that grazed on it could become permanently infertile. For animals that haven't become sterile yet, fertility problems reversed when animals stopped taking red clover.

I believe humans are susceptible for this. We are expecting clover to work based on its hormonal properties for humans. Humans are believed to have the same receptors, and mammals have similar reproductive organs. Birds as vertebrates less so. but similar enough.

[isobasic]

Red clover appeared to do this on animals that mostly feed on it, as a way for the plant to not be overgrazed. I haven't found any studies on it for humans.

Abstract: Plant oestrogens; the cause of decreased fertility in cows. A case report. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6739284

Review: http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/red-clover see section: side effects

http://vein.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/sheepheal...pter7.html see section: Phyto-oestrogenic infertility

Animals that grazed on it could become permanently infertile. For animals that haven't become sterile yet, fertility problems reversed when animals stopped taking red clover.

I believe humans are susceptible for this. We are expecting clover to work based on its hormonal properties for humans. Humans are believed to have the same receptors, and mammals have similar reproductive organs. Birds as vertebrates less so. but similar enough.

Thanks!
Ok, so any idea what it contains that makes it different in this than other herbs?

[Dynseli]

According to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles.../table/T1/ Red clover has kaempferol.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1780039/ shows it has similar chemicals than soy, with higher levels of formononetin and biochanin A.

From what I'm thinking, ovaries should have receptors on them. Whatever downregulates/desensitizes them is a high risk. Antagonists too; agonists should also be examined. What ever the chemical is, it increases oviduct size, but it decreases ovary size.

The article "Dietary red clover (Trifolium pratense) induces oviduct growth and decreases ovary and testes growth in Japanese quail chicks" ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858001/ reposted link) says irrigation to clover increased its phytoestrogen content that does this. It says "large amounts of the phytoestrogen biochanin A decreased fertility in scaled quail, suggesting that animals would not consume enough in the field to cause reproductive disruption [32]" [same result for mammal grazers]. Some synthetic estrogens do this too "the potent synthetic estrogen, diethylstilbestrol (DES), decreased ovarian weight in adult scaled quail." It showed evidence that estrogenic chemicals can cause problems for rats and kangaroos too.

My worry is, what if other herbs could cause a similar problem by being the wrong kind of estrogenic or progestogenic. It is known that clover, which is a ground cover, does this to protect it from overgrazing, that may not be a problem with other plants.

[isobasic]

In your opinion, then, is red clover really any worse than other popular phytoestrogens / synthetic hormones? They use the word 'permanent' I suppose. Otherwise, my bcp is supposed to make me infertile haha, but hopefully not when I stop taking it.

[isobasic]

In your opinion, then, is red clover really any worse than other popular phytoestrogens / synthetic hormones? They use the word 'permanent' I suppose. Otherwise, my bcp is supposed to make me infertile haha, but hopefully not when I stop taking it.

Ps - appraently kaemmpferol is in broccoli and a lot of other popular edible vegetables, too.

[Dynseli]

'Permanent' infertility is sterility. The worry is, that the ovaries (or maybe another reproductive organ) 'shrink' until they become dysfunctional; think about it. If there is literature on which receptors the ovaries have, or other reproductive organs have, it'd give us more to understand. We know the direct effects, though.

'Temporary' infertility is like using birth control pills, being pregnant (as in stopping another fertilization from happening which would endanger the fetus) or breastfeeding. It affects the cycle, so at that time it is not the right time to conceive, but when hormones level off, things should work out. All women are temporarily infertile during the wrong time of month or cycle. In fact, avoiding all plant sources, could be a way of temporary infertility, but then eating plants again can bring fertility back to normal.

So far, red clover and Zen (see evidence above that it affects reproductive organs) look like the worst ones. Synthetics could range anywhere from worse than red clover to relatively safe (many bcp's). Birth control pills are supposed to be safe, in regards to fertility; read the label, the literature, or ask the doctor about that. Spearmint which increases fertility for the moment, may cause premature menopause and poor ovarian reserve. Avoid ingesting concentrated extracts of Red Clover and Zen. 'Possibly' use clover for rubbing directly, away from abdominal and pelvic areas, instead. A similar case can be made for spearmint, you don't want octoplets, and a decreased fertility age. I believe the risk for red clover and zen is higher than other common herbs. Messing with hormones (especially LH, FSH or estrogens that induce menstruation) while pregnant is another no-no.

[Dynseli]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24905140 "Naringenin (NAR) and 8-prenylnaringenin (8-PN) reduce the developmental competence of porcine oocytes in vitro" abstract

Naringenin is found in citrus fruit. 8-prenylnaringenin is found in hops. I don't trust this study, but I should post it here. It suggests to not take high amounts.

[Dynseli]

you're spamming that link on many threads