[Dynseli]

From looking at updated and more complete information. There's a correction to be made.

Prolactin lowers FSH and LH. Prolactin itself doesn't necessarily lower estrogens. Progesterone and Prolactin together prevent menstruation. Progesterone prepares the egg.

[Dynseli]

On the hormone chart, ignore the blue coloring of Pregnenolone (P5). It is only colored blue because it is a main pathway to other hormones.

Other corrections:

Breast swelling during luteal phase is also growth, and perhaps antagonists undo this action that is associated with water weight. Remove the sentence that was crossed out.

The corpus luteum is a temporary organ, but it doesn't become a fetus. It releases the ovum, and stays in the ovary to produce progesterone. Then it dies and eventually disintegrates.

PCOS is associated with high androgens, insulin resistance, and lack of ovulation. (aromatases which convert androgens in to estrogens, and anti-dht come to mind). Exercise is also commonly mentioned as treatment, (as it is useful for insulin resistance). Healthy fats are also good for insulin.

[lostacres6]

Great info but can you tell me something about menopause?
I've been menopausal for 12 yrs. I started NBE 4 1/2 yrs ago & have seen little progress (you'd think with all those supplements taken that long I'd be a 44X by now!!!!!). In the past year I've started having menstrual periods again, almost regularly. I don't cycle. I take PM, PG cream, fennel, wild yam, FG, goat's rue, pig placenta, MSM, L arginine, shavatari, plus volufiline & PM creams.
Am I wasting my time trying to grow breasts at my age?
Thanks for any info/advice.

[Dynseli]

I'm stumped about periods showing up after menopause, but I think I've vaguely heard of it before. There's not much on it online, there's a yahoo thread that says see a doctor. I don't know if it's a symptom of a serious sickness, the body emulating the cycles, if the body took a break from having a menstrual cycle then it coming back, or something else.

I don't know if its wasting time, but many would have everyone believe all of NBE is a waste of time. If its possible, it might be more difficult, since reading about menopause, it says the ovaries are smaller, and estrogen is about a 5th of before menopause. It'd be hard to see how enough progesterone can be produced since the corpeus luteum wouldn't be around, but there are phytoprogestogen mimics to progesterone like diosgenin from fenugreek. Progesterone is important for structure.

Fatty tissue can create estrogens from the andrenal androgen DHEA, so aromatase herbs would be important to aid this. anti-dht herbs are still important, and prolactin itself wouldn't be a problem. Grains and herbs that help the liver may be useful. The liver breaks down small amounts of estrone (which is common during menopause) into estriol (but possibly not significantly); but the liver also breaks down estriol. Fatty foods allow estriol to stay around longer. Estradiol is low in quantities during menopause, but estrone is high. Estriol is high only during pregnancy, but the point here is to have a healthy liver which does amounts of converting. Estriol: Safety and Efficacy (also has information on other estrogens)

Have you seen a doctor about having periods after menopause?

[Dynseli]

Anatomy:
The breast is composed of glandular, connective, and adipose tissues. This glandular tissue is made up of numerous milk producing lobules and ducts. The breast ligaments originate over the span of the pectoralis major muscle, while most of it lies over the "second to the sixth ribs."

Areolar and mammary glands are exocrine glands. Estrogens, and progestogens are different categories of hormones; Prolactin is another type of hormone.

Breasts contain 'estrogen receptor alpha' (ERα), 'progesterone receptor B' (PRB), and 'prolactin receptor' (PrlR) proteins. Estradiol, progesterone and prolactin normally activate these receptors, in respective order, that cause breast growth.

Estrogens cause elongation or forward growth of (lactiferous) duct cells, through activation of ER-α. PRB activation, causes side-branching of ducts. Progestogens also cause stimulation of connective breast tissue (cooper's ligaments). Growth of milk producing glands is caused by prolactin. 'Insulin-like growth-factor 1' (IGF-1) causes breast epithelial cell proliferation. Lower (but existent) androgen levels are associated with larger breast sizes.

Cycling or influencing hormones together may lessen cell receptor desensitization. Also, an overload by strong or excessive antagonisms may damage receptors, desensitizing them.

Endocrinology:
Prolactin and progesterone signal each other in a loop to boost each other's presence (only at certain times), while lowering luteinizing hormone (LH). Menstruation is signaled to start by LH. Massage raises prolactin, which at times can raise progesterone.

Long, frequent, or heavy periods can be attributed to too much estradiol, LH or FSH. This has to be balanced out by progesterone or prolactin.

Don't supplement with human hormones, use herbs that influence human hormones or provide phytohormones, or areola massage. Anti-DHT herbs are important, because DHT inhibits breast growth more than other androgens.

LH and FSH stimulate ovulation, and these two hormones have been administered to cause pregnancy or cause multiple births. Too much LH or FSH over extended use may be a risk for premature ovarian reserve failure or early menopause. LH and FSH stimulating herbs are unsafe to take during pregnancy, as they induce contractions, or try to start menstruation.


References:
* activation - Hormone Action in the Mammary Gland
* endogenus - Breast size in relation to endogenous hormone levels, body constitution, and oral contraceptive use in healthy nulligravid women aged 19-25 years
* mlpswelling - Breast:premenstrual tenderness and swelling
* yj - Yen & Jaffe's Reproductive Endocrinology (6th Ed.): The breast
* Britannica (2012)

[Dynseli]

I will continue researching.

[Charlie_girl]

Nice work! Lots of great info! Just want to add one more thing in case anyone is on a program for an extended period of time that boosts their progesterone and estrogen levels, especially without cycling. Do not abruptly stop your program, especially if you plan to continue pumping and/or massaging after suddenly stopping herbs that boost those hormones. High progesterone levels and high estrogen levels suddenly dropping while prolactin levels increase, signals your body to lactate. (Unless of course, that's what your goal is. In that case, search for "induced lactation" to read more about that.) Just thought I'd throw that in there

It won't happen to everyone. However that's how you induce lactation and how you re-lactate as well (for mothers who've lost their milk supply and work to get it back, for adoptive mothers who've never had a baby themselves do this to be able to breastfeed their adopted babies, men have done it, couples do it for adult nursing relationships, damp nurses have done it, ect.) I did it twice because I relactated two different times. You literally boost estrogen and progesterone levels constantly for an extended period of time (minimum of 3 months, best results at 8-9 months, but anywhere in between is fine), then abruptly stop to allow your progesterone and estrogen levels to drop and begin boosting prolactin levels while stimulating your breats (massage, hand expression, the Marmet technique, breast milk pump, suckling, ect).

IF you choose to induce lactation, please read up and educate yourself first. You need to learn about what to do after the milk comes. You need to express that milk or it could cause pain and/or problems and you will dry up if you don't. It works on supply and demand. The more you demand it of your breasts, the more the milk will come. And visa versa. There are ways to safely dry up your milk, just do some reading (ie. cabbage leaves in your bra. Weird, huh?)

*Plus I just wanted to subscribe to this thread

[Charlie_girl]

Lovely, I have a question for you. So, so far I've got everything working for me, except I think my DHT level might be getting up there. My hair is thinning around the edges of my face and around my bangs area on top, and I have more pimples on my back, face and chest than ever. Everything else is awesome though, so this irritates me!! Lol.

Anyways, one of the things I take is Maca and I do NOT want to stop it, it's boosting my butt and breast growth so well when combined with fenugreek. Anyways, I'm on a weight gain and muscle gain workout regimine and diet consisting of surplus calories and heavy weight lifting. So, in NO way do I want to interfere with that. And if Maca in higher doses does in fact boost testosterone, then whatever, it's working for me! Haha Seriously those "lab tests" they've done on Maca are at such small doses, you can't compare. Anyways, what do you suggest I do in regards to the anti-DHT? (That's pretty much the only thing I'm currently not taking).

This is what I'm taking now:

*Food Based Multivitamin
*Good quality fish oil capsules
*Fenugreek
*Goats Rue
*Bovine Colostrum
*Progesterone Cream (looooove this stuff!)
*MSM (although the dose I'm at doesn't do much except help with my knee pain. I need to up the dose)
*Maca (loooooove this stuff too!)
*Creatine Monohydrate (for the weight lifting part, not for NBE)
*Will begin Shatavari again soon, I ran out)

I massage with flaxseed oil and pump with Noogleberry also.
I consume ground flaxseed daily in my shakes along with ground chia seeds, yogart, oatmeal, ect. I do eat very good, lots of protein, good carbs, good fats & oils, fruits, veggies, nuts, ect ect.

[Dynseli]

As for lactating, there is that correlation with lowering estrogen and progesterone. I believe oxytocin plays a role too. As long as the corpus luteum is still around, which is during the luteal phase, prolactin levels usually boost progesterone.

Aromatase is one way to lower androgens. Topical lavender and topical tea tree diluted in carrier oil may do a lot for the breast, which is one place where adipose tissue converts androgens into estrogens. There's also ingestible peony, which is an aromatase. There is a concern about too much estrogen and not enough progesterone. It's important to cycle or increase prolactin, progesterone and estrogen together, along with the right balance of vitamins and minerals.

There are many anti-reductase (anti-alpha-reductase) herbs. anti-alpha-reuctases lower the dehydro versions of hormones like progesterone or testosterone (DHT). Topical anti-alpha-reductases are a good choice.

Winter Squash (including butternut squash, pumpkin) seeds and their oils lower DHT. It can be anything (edible) from Cucurbita, it doesn't have to be limited to pumpkin seed.

Lotus pointed out that there are lots of fruits and oils from the palm tree family that reduce DHT.

Red reishi is an anti-reductase.

Anti-alpha-reductases (including anti-dht's) can be searched on the internet.

During the luteal phase, progesterone cream and bovine ovary can be simply replaced with a prolactin herb,and this can be improved upon with adding fenugreek. Outside of the luteal phase, fenugreek can act as progesterone, but prolactins can't.

[Dynseli]

pygeum is another anti-dht.

Note: don't apply oils/extracts near the pubic or abdominal region, because of uncertainty of effects there.

Cycle or combine different hormone (progesterone, prolatin, estrogen) influences, since it is believed that too much of one hormone in an imbalance may cause ailments.