[carolbrigid]

THANK YOU SO MUCH for sharing this great information! I'm fairly new here and have been looking at so many posts on the forums. I got really confused as to what to use. This breaks it all down and it makes sense to me. THANK YOU for the great and concise information! It is very much appreciated!

[surferjoe2007]

No problem, glad to help.

I finally found bulk shatavari extract powder though I can't personally vouch for the quality: http://www.ebay.com/usr/winst_2015?_trks...7675.l2559

Also looks like I was wrong about the concentration. About 1,000-2,000 mg would be better rather than 600-1,200 mg. Same for fenugreek I would think. Again if you are hypoglycemic don't use any at all, not even 300 mg.

[rateset]

Do you mean 1,000-2,000 mg of pills with 50% saponine extract or that much saponine alone?

[surferjoe2007]

Do you mean 1,000-2,000 mg of pills with 50% saponine extract or that much saponine alone?

Of pills. 500-1,000 mg saponins basically.

[rateset]

Thanks for your replay. Your program sounds very interesting to me, I would like to try it and I have one question. I was looking for a product with saponine extract and I found one
FenuPlast

•650 mg Steroidsaponine*
•200 mg 4-Hydroxy-Isoleucin*
•5 mg Zink*, Selen + Vitamin A


But the thing is, it is for the body builder scene and they talk about intensifying testosteron. That is not really what I am trying to do. Are there different types or does it work differently on man

[surferjoe2007]

Thanks for your replay. Your program sounds very interesting to me, I would like to try it and I have one question. I was looking for a product with saponine extract and I found one
FenuPlast

•650 mg Steroidsaponine*
•200 mg 4-Hydroxy-Isoleucin*
•5 mg Zink*, Selen + Vitamin A


But the thing is, it is for the body builder scene and they talk about intensifying testosteron. That is not really what I am trying to do. Are there different types or does it work differently on man

The same saponins that intensify women hormones in women intensifies male hormones in men. That's fine. The second ingredient stimulates insulin secretion, so it's even worse for a hypoglycemic. Also means that the supplement should probably be taken with protein rather than fat or sugar, unless you want to gain weight, because insulin causes storage. The rest is just a couple minerals and a vitamin.

From your signature it seems like you've had trouble with herbs before. It may be better to start with the nutritional mix first. Though it wouldn't hurt to try herbs again.

[rateset]

well if that product is ok, it would be a good choice, cheap and easy to find

I did not have trouble with herbs or any other supplement I took, its just that they worked only the first month, I had really strong sensations and definitely an increase in size, but only in the first month afterwards they showed no effect whatsoever. And I took a herbal mix pill - Wonderup, the recommended number of pills, so normally it should not be an overdose. I am taking BO at the moment.

[surferjoe2007]

well if that product is ok, it would be a good choice, cheap and easy to find

I did not have trouble with herbs or any other supplement I took, its just that they worked only the first month, I had really strong sensations and definitely an increase in size, but only in the first month afterwards they showed no effect whatsoever. And I took a herbal mix pill - Wonderup, the recommended number of pills, so normally it should not be an overdose. I am taking BO at the moment.

I see then yes give it a try. Wonderup looks pretty weak and estrogen focused which is probably why it plateaued. If you responded to that I believe you will be pleasantly surprised with the saponins by comparison. Even though it will have little effect on testosterone in women, it would still be nice to add an anti-testosterone such as saw palmetto extract. If BO is working then combine all 3 for best results. Vitex might help too if you think you need more progesterone. But if you are responding well to BO alone then you may not need more progesterone.

[rateset]

I read on this site:

http://examine.com/supplements/fenugreek/#summary10-3

that fenugreek normally should not change the number of free testosterons. Also in the body builder forums they said using it for couple of months did not change anything and some reported change after taking it for a year or so.

there were too studies about fenugreek interaction with hormones:
"Interactions with Hormones

8.1. Testosterone

In rats, oral intake of 10-35mg/kg Fenugreek furostanols for 4 weeks has caused an increase in the weight of the levator ani muscle (thought to be indicative of anabolic actions in males) with no significant influence on circulating testosterone levels.[65] Prostate weight was not altered in this study.

Possible androgenic effects independent of testosterone, although no evidence exists to support the notion that this is at all a powerful androgenic effect (if it is replicated)
Fenugreek has once been shown at 500mg (brand name Testofen) to increase serum testosterone over a period of 8 weeks in resistance trained males relative to placebo (experiencing a decline in testosterone relative to baseline)[66] although another study (which noted a decrease in DHT, a testosterone metabolite) failed to find any significance influence on total or free testosterone using similar methodology[67] and a study using 600mg of Testofen for a period of 6 weeks in otherwise healthy man has similarly failed to find an increase in testosterone.[68]

In regards to DHT, the one study to measure DHT noted a 9.42% decrease relative to baseline over 8 weeks supplementation of 500mg Fenugreek.[67]"

10.2. Lactation

Fenugreek is a commonly recommended herb for increasing milk production in pregnant women,[77] and is seen by some as one of the few herbs with promising evidence.[78][79] It is told (traditionally) that fenugreek 'stimulates sweat production' and that this influences milk production as the two structures (sweat glands and milk glands) are similar.[80][81]

A few trials have been conducted on the matter, and fenugreek seems to be able to enhance milk production in recent mothers more than placebo.[80] In which control and placebo had 31.1+/-12.9mL and 38.8+/-16.3mL respectively, the fenugreek group was able to produce 73.2+/-53.5mL after consuming at least 3 cups (200mL) of fenugreek tea (Still tea, Humana) for three days.

The mechanism of action is not specifically known, but may be related to phytoesteogens or diosgenin.[80] Not many studies have detected the presence of Fenugreek bioactives in breast milk, but one assessing the anti-oxidant capacity of breast milk from mothers drinking Fenugreek tea failed to find a significant difference relative to placebo.[82]

[surferjoe2007]

I read on this site:

http://examine.com/supplements/fenugreek/#summary10-3

that fenugreek normally should not change the number of free testosterons. Also in the body builder forums they said using it for couple of months did not change anything and some reported change after taking it for a year or so.

there were too studies about fenugreek interaction with hormones:
"Interactions with Hormones

8.1. Testosterone

In rats, oral intake of 10-35mg/kg Fenugreek furostanols for 4 weeks has caused an increase in the weight of the levator ani muscle (thought to be indicative of anabolic actions in males) with no significant influence on circulating testosterone levels.[65] Prostate weight was not altered in this study.

Possible androgenic effects independent of testosterone, although no evidence exists to support the notion that this is at all a powerful androgenic effect (if it is replicated)
Fenugreek has once been shown at 500mg (brand name Testofen) to increase serum testosterone over a period of 8 weeks in resistance trained males relative to placebo (experiencing a decline in testosterone relative to baseline)[66] although another study (which noted a decrease in DHT, a testosterone metabolite) failed to find any significance influence on total or free testosterone using similar methodology[67] and a study using 600mg of Testofen for a period of 6 weeks in otherwise healthy man has similarly failed to find an increase in testosterone.[68]

In regards to DHT, the one study to measure DHT noted a 9.42% decrease relative to baseline over 8 weeks supplementation of 500mg Fenugreek.[67]"

10.2. Lactation

Fenugreek is a commonly recommended herb for increasing milk production in pregnant women,[77] and is seen by some as one of the few herbs with promising evidence.[78][79] It is told (traditionally) that fenugreek 'stimulates sweat production' and that this influences milk production as the two structures (sweat glands and milk glands) are similar.[80][81]

A few trials have been conducted on the matter, and fenugreek seems to be able to enhance milk production in recent mothers more than placebo.[80] In which control and placebo had 31.1+/-12.9mL and 38.8+/-16.3mL respectively, the fenugreek group was able to produce 73.2+/-53.5mL after consuming at least 3 cups (200mL) of fenugreek tea (Still tea, Humana) for three days.

The mechanism of action is not specifically known, but may be related to phytoesteogens or diosgenin.[80] Not many studies have detected the presence of Fenugreek bioactives in breast milk, but one assessing the anti-oxidant capacity of breast milk from mothers drinking Fenugreek tea failed to find a significant difference relative to placebo.[82]

Yeah I've read studies like those. It seems to be hormonally adaptive. It boosts testosterone effects, but only in males. Unlike straight testosterone which would affect females too. It helps lactation, but only in lactating mothers. Unlike straight prolactin which could cause lactation in anyone. In several threads I searched, fearful male bodybuilders tested themselves and found a tiny insignificant increase in prolactin and estrogen. Also no moobs. Etc.

I've used fenugreek, not tesofen btw, for male stuff and it was pretty obviously effective.