[missboobshirt]

Hi, just my thoughts on your stand still here.

If your breast are growing and then "deflating," my guess is that it is not true growth in the sense of fat tissue actually being built up. I think that your supplements are causing them to swell up, kind of as if you were having a period.

In order for your body to actually build fatty tissue to build up your breasts, you do need to be producing human growth hormone. The way to do that is with amino acids and vitamins. I have recently discovered that there are three amino acids considered to be necessary for making hgh. They are L-lysine, Arginine, and L-glutamine. Also important are vitamins C, A, B6, and E for various reasons (a Google search would turn up why if you want specifics.) Last ones I know of is Zinc, which builds tissue, and folic acid, but as ellacraig has told me it's best to get folic acid from a whole food source rather than an isolated supplement.

Lacking all these things is, I believe, my problem and why NBE hasn't worked for me in the past, so I can't say that they have worked for me quite yet since I just added these things to my routine yesterday, but it is worth you checking into. Do some googling on the things I mentioned and it might be worth it for you to give them a shot.

You can get amino acids supplements from Amazon by a brand called Now foods, theirs has the three that I mentioned plus a bunch of other essential and nonessential ones. As far as my "research" has been able to tell, growing breasts without amino acids isn't gonna happen because they are necessary for HGH production, so you might start there and then look into the vitamins I mentioned.

I hope this is somewhat helpful

Thank you so much!! I am thinking I am missing this too! I just learned about this as well-- I don't take herbs, only maca. I have found that taking vitamins has helped my breast growth more than anything. I take exactly what you mentioned and it's helped me so much! so do you recommend taking a L-Arginine supplement? A friend of mine on here just recommended that to me, I just wasnt sure if that should be my next step.

[missboobshirt]

If you were growing before but now you stopped then it is probably one or both of two things:
1. An imbalance. Maybe you have enough progesterone now and you need a stronger phytoestrogen such as PM to balance it out. Or use less progesterone cream.
2. You need to up the amounts. What you have been taking is enough to reach and maintain your current size, but to reach a larger size you need more.

Glancing at your profile I think it may be both. Nothing you are taking does very well when increased, so instead of increasing anything you are currently taking you might add a little PM and a steroidal saponin such as ~50% saponin fenugreek extract or ~50% saponin shatavari extract. Unless fenugreek or another similar herb has given you problems in the past, in which case you should omit it entirely (not even a small amount). It's easy to overdo PM so start with a little then add more only if it seems to be helping.

I didnt want to take anything estrogen related because it totally made my breast shrink even more :/ I don't understand it, but when I have more estrogen I bleed more and my breast shrink even worse. It is only when I add more P that I have more growth (besides vitamins/maca)

[surferjoe2007]

If you were growing before but now you stopped then it is probably one or both of two things:
1. An imbalance. Maybe you have enough progesterone now and you need a stronger phytoestrogen such as PM to balance it out. Or use less progesterone cream.
2. You need to up the amounts. What you have been taking is enough to reach and maintain your current size, but to reach a larger size you need more.

Glancing at your profile I think it may be both. Nothing you are taking does very well when increased, so instead of increasing anything you are currently taking you might add a little PM and a steroidal saponin such as ~50% saponin fenugreek extract or ~50% saponin shatavari extract. Unless fenugreek or another similar herb has given you problems in the past, in which case you should omit it entirely (not even a small amount). It's easy to overdo PM so start with a little then add more only if it seems to be helping.

I didnt want to take anything estrogen related because it totally made my breast shrink even more :/ I don't understand it, but when I have more estrogen I bleed more and my breast shrink even worse. It is only when I add more P that I have more growth (besides vitamins/maca)

Only add the fenugreek extract then.

You probably shrank from an imbalance. Too much estrogen or progesterone without the other can be less effective or even make you shrink. In that case you should only take the one you are low in, apparently progesterone. But eventually your progesterone will get higher and you will need estrogen too. Or after a long time you could shrink from too much progesterone. It takes both.

[anyover88]

I know this is an older thread but it should be pointed out that progesterone below a certain threshold actually upregulates E receptors which is why some women experience an increase in estrogen dominance symptoms when they use it - the receptors are responding to estrogen again. this is also why some experience growth from PC, their receptors are active again.

If you add more progesterone it actually downregulates E receptors, at least according to Progesterone Therapy, and is another means of ending estrogen dominance. Im not really sure what this means for NBE yet, other than that growth might happen in different stages with the menstrual cycle and if you cycle your progesterone cream.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/how-d...nance.html

[missboobshirt]

I know this is an older thread but it should be pointed out that progesterone below a certain threshold actually upregulates E receptors which is why some women experience an increase in estrogen dominance symptoms when they use it - the receptors are responding to estrogen again. this is also why some experience growth from PC, their receptors are active again.

If you add more progesterone it actually downregulates E receptors, at least according to Progesterone Therapy, and is another means of ending estrogen dominance. Im not really sure what this means for NBE yet, other than that growth might happen in different stages with the menstrual cycle and if you cycle your progesterone cream.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/how-d...nance.html

its okay, I appreciate any and all information..
I am a little confused though.. in my case when I used PC-- so you're saying I activated my E receptors and it has nothing to do with progesterone? I know you can get P dominant if you use too much, but to my knowlege progestrone is a hormone breasts need as well (to grow).. maybe i'm just confused. I do cycle my PC

[AbiDrew85]

I know this is an older thread but it should be pointed out that progesterone below a certain threshold actually upregulates E receptors which is why some women experience an increase in estrogen dominance symptoms when they use it - the receptors are responding to estrogen again. this is also why some experience growth from PC, their receptors are active again.

If you add more progesterone it actually downregulates E receptors, at least according to Progesterone Therapy, and is another means of ending estrogen dominance. Im not really sure what this means for NBE yet, other than that growth might happen in different stages with the menstrual cycle and if you cycle your progesterone cream.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/how-d...nance.html

its okay, I appreciate any and all information..
I am a little confused though.. in my case when I used PC-- so you're saying I activated my E receptors and it has nothing to do with progesterone? I know you can get P dominant if you use too much, but to my knowlege progestrone is a hormone breasts need as well (to grow).. maybe i'm just confused. I do cycle my PC

Actually you're right, and that's WHY it's a necessary hormone as well. And it's also why conventional wisdom is, as usual, wrong about the cause of pear shape. Progesterone does not need to be counterbalanced to continue to increase the width of the hips, while estrogen does need to be balanced by progesterone in order to grow breast. So it's P dom, not E dom, that causes pear shape. E dom is more likely to just cause greater fat deposit all over and make you apple shaped.

[Tanya Marie Squirrel]

I know this is an older thread but it should be pointed out that progesterone below a certain threshold actually upregulates E receptors which is why some women experience an increase in estrogen dominance symptoms when they use it - the receptors are responding to estrogen again. this is also why some experience growth from PC, their receptors are active again.

If you add more progesterone it actually downregulates E receptors, at least according to Progesterone Therapy, and is another means of ending estrogen dominance. Im not really sure what this means for NBE yet, other than that growth might happen in different stages with the menstrual cycle and if you cycle your progesterone cream.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/how-d...nance.html

its okay, I appreciate any and all information..
I am a little confused though.. in my case when I used PC-- so you're saying I activated my E receptors and it has nothing to do with progesterone? I know you can get P dominant if you use too much, but to my knowlege progestrone is a hormone breasts need as well (to grow).. maybe i'm just confused. I do cycle my PC

Actually you're right, and that's WHY it's a necessary hormone as well. And it's also why conventional wisdom is, as usual, wrong about the cause of pear shape. Progesterone does not need to be counterbalanced to continue to increase the width of the hips, while estrogen does need to be balanced by progesterone in order to grow breast. So it's P dom, not E dom, that causes pear shape. E dom is more likely to just cause greater fat deposit all over and make you apple shaped.

all this talk of fruit shapes makes me want a fruit salad now!

[anyover88]

its okay, I appreciate any and all information..
I am a little confused though.. in my case when I used PC-- so you're saying I activated my E receptors and it has nothing to do with progesterone? I know you can get P dominant if you use too much, but to my knowlege progestrone is a hormone breasts need as well (to grow).. maybe i'm just confused. I do cycle my PC

I'm not really familiar with your levels... but my guess? if you had stopped responding from PC in the past or even experiencing shrinkage, maybe your natural progesterone levels were already adequate to begin with and PC actually shut down your estrogen receptors to a point. but your program looks like a miracle I'm sorry if you have to repeat yourself but how are you taking your PC with your cycle again?

but yeah, you are right about progesterone needed for "outward" ductal growth, estrogen for "projected" growth. I hope I remembered right!

The author of Progesterone Therapy states throughout her website that women should use high doses progesterone cream, like 100 mg or more per day, to shut down estrogen receptors to end estrogen dominance symptoms, in addition to other lifestyle changes like increasing vitamin D and other nutrients. Since estrogen receptors are vital for estrogen to do their work in the simplest terms, too much progesterone would be bad for growth. not necessarily bad for health. I should also put a disclaimer that the author does not advocate using PC for breast enhancement, I think someone asked on her forum about using it for that reason. pooh pooh

I mostly just pointed this out since it seems this forum isn't aware of high dose progesterone, or hasn't used it as far as I know and I was curious. I didn't mean to hijack your thread or confuse anyone x) high dose PC honestly might not be useful for boobies and wanted to see what others thought. just food for thought!

so yeah, a little progesterone is needed to activate estrogen receptors. increasing the dosage past a certain point shuts them down which would IN THEORY be bad for nbe unless it is cycled, because you are right, it is necessary for growth to an extent. but most people do not have high or even normal progesterone levels due to modern life, which is why PC works for some but not all of us.

as an aside the author mentions progesterone for MEN to shut down estrogen, which is really, really isteresting because progesterone is supposedly only a female hormone. men for the most part have naturally lower levels of progesterone. in theory, raising progesterone a little in men might actually INCREASE estrogen sensitivity as it may in women. she advocates using higher doses for men as well, although slightly lower than her recommended dose for women. It can allegedly reverse gynecomastia/ breast growth in men and prostate hypertrophy (swelling) in older men due to DHT, and progesterone on its own is supposed to be a great DHT reducer for all sexes. so maybe progesterone can reduce androgen activity too to an extent? increase E activity in bio males if cycled as in a woman's natural cycle?

In both sexes it seems just small amounts of progesterone increase estrogen activity in general, which could explain why some women with really bad estrogen dominance experience terrible symptoms when they start with progesterone, and they go away when the dosage is increased because it shuts down e receptors, therefore inhibiting estrogen activity.

so in theory, low dose progesterone might be good for women who are not responding much to estrogenic herbs, high dose progesterone might be better for women who experience side effects from estrogenic herbs or have too much DHT activity. I think!

so here's another thought. maybe cycling progesterone is unnecessary, but maybe taking progesterone throughout the cycle, increasing dosage for luteal phase and decreasing for follicular? or taking a fairly small steady dosage in follicular and luteal to sensitize to estrogen when it comes around? I also wonder now if progesterone can even act locally on the breasts.

so according to the site author, progesterone sensitivity does not decrease, and it does not accumulate as others have claimed. it just has a half life in the body of 14 hours if I remembered it right so you would have to take it 2 times a day to keep it in your system if that is what you wanted. I really, really want pick up some PC again and try this out myself i'm procrastinating again and stretching my budget thin as it is...

as a small little tangent I think a long time ago user TibetanPrincess actually took her PC a week earlier in her cycle than most of us would and she saw some results from that?

Again, back to your decreases you mentioned in this older little thread. Estrogen activity whether through high estrogen or high estrogen sensitivity causes edema, or fluid retention, a common symptom of estrogen dominance, which might explain why the breasts tend to balloon up at certain points in the cycle. since progesterone is a counterbalance to estrogen in higher amounts, and breasts tend to not swell as much at certain points, this could be due to progesterone shutting down estrogen receptors, reducing edema/fluid buildup. this might explain your shrinkage you mentioned missB! I am not sure if swelling is necessary for growth, is a side effect, or precursor to growth. maybe the little pendulum swing between progesterone and estrogen is necessary for incremental growth.

another point to be made is that, I think if estrogen is like other substances and hormones, high amounts of estrogen or xenoestrogens for example might desensitize estrogen receptors. progesterone could in theory revitalize these receptors, which would again make it very useful for boobie growth in moderation. but it could also, again, exacerbate estrogen dominance symptoms.

now Missb I am not suggesting you alter your program if it's working for you already as it clearly is! I wonder if any of this is even useful or if I just made a mess! I hope our resident experts can weigh in here. thank you everyone for being patient and kind here

[anyover88]

Actually you're right, and that's WHY it's a necessary hormone as well. And it's also why conventional wisdom is, as usual, wrong about the cause of pear shape. Progesterone does not need to be counterbalanced to continue to increase the width of the hips, while estrogen does need to be balanced by progesterone in order to grow breast. So it's P dom, not E dom, that causes pear shape. E dom is more likely to just cause greater fat deposit all over and make you apple shaped.

ok, I might learn something new and important here! if you don't mind abi, what is the conventional wisdom about pear shape, just estrogen dominance, when in reality it's progesterone dominance? I wasn't aware there could be a progesterone dominance. what do you think about the progesterone therapy website and the author's claims over there?

[missboobshirt]

Actually you're right, and that's WHY it's a necessary hormone as well. And it's also why conventional wisdom is, as usual, wrong about the cause of pear shape. Progesterone does not need to be counterbalanced to continue to increase the width of the hips, while estrogen does need to be balanced by progesterone in order to grow breast. So it's P dom, not E dom, that causes pear shape. E dom is more likely to just cause greater fat deposit all over and make you apple shaped.

ok, I might learn something new and important here! if you don't mind abi, what is the conventional wisdom about pear shape, just estrogen dominance, when in reality it's progesterone dominance? I wasn't aware there could be a progesterone dominance. what do you think about the progesterone therapy website and the author's claims over there?

I second this-- I know Abi has mentioned this once before to me. I heard/looked up that pear shaped women have more omega 3 fatty acids because that type of fat tends to store in the hips. So I know omega 3 has a lot to do with pear shape/hips/butt.. but I also heard it has to do with estrogen. But I have noticed upon using PC that my hips have grown, I also think its because of Maca.. I don't take any estrogen based herb. (I will reply to you, Anyover88, as to why I dont!)