Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 29 2006 at 10:48 PM wsdm (Login wsdm)
In one of the other posts SugarQ said that Prolactin helps body store fat in breasts and not allover the place.
Galactogogues I THINK stimulate the production of Prolactin.
So I found a website listing Galactogogues for those of you not in the know already
http://www.wildroots.com/galactagogues.html
Galactagogues - are used during lactation to increase the quantity of breastmilk. Common galactogogues include
"The substances described here are well known to be safe when taken in the quantities suggested ...
we know of no limit to the number of galactagogues that can be taken simultaneously, nor are we aware of any negative interactions between any of the herbs listed here."
"In general, tinctures (alcohol or glycerin) work much better than capsules (dried seeds or leaves) because the potency of the herb is much better preserved when suspended in alcohol or glycerin than in the dried form. It is usually best to place it directly under the tongue (sub-lingually)."
http://www.bfar.org/galactagogues.shtml
Galactogogues
anise,
blessed thistle,
chasteberry,
fennel,
fenugreek,
hops,
marshmallow,
milk thistle
nettles.
Brewer's Yeast
Goat's Rue
and European Vervain
These herbs have been traditionally used by women to increase their milk supply while nursing with varying results. Proper nutrition including adaquate protein, B- vitamins and essential fatty acids are essential to milk production.
Anise Seed (Pimpinella anisum ) - Has a mild estrogenic effect. Also used to ease colic and gas pains and can be drunk by the nursing mother to relieve colicy babies.
Blessed Thistle (Cnicus benedictus ) - Blessed thistle is a bitter herb useful for liver and digestive problems and its ability to increase and enrich the flow of milk.
Chaste Berry (Vitex angus-castus) - Chaste Berry has a normalizing effect on the progesterone function of the pituitary gland. Vitex stimulates prolactin production and is used by nursing mothers to increase milk suupply. A controlled study found that women who took vitex had an increase in milk production over women who took a placebo. It is not recommended for use after the third month of pregnancy as it may bring on the milk production too early.
Fennel Seed (Foeniculum vulgare) - Like anise, fennel is traditionally used to increase milk supply and also as a carminative to dispell gas. Fennel is a bitter. Bitter seeds and herbs are important for stimulating the release of digestive juices.
Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) - Traditionally very popular. Don't be surprised, fenugreek will make your sweat and urine smell like maple syrup! To use simmer 1 1/2 teaspoons of seed per cup of water for 10 minutes and drink 3 cups a day.
Hops (Humulus lupulus ) - Highly estrogenic properties useful for stimulating milk production and regulating hormonal production. Hops are also a sedative useful for insomnia and a digestive bitter. It is best used fresh for its hormonal actions and dried for its sedative actions.
Milk Thistle Seed (Silybum marianum ) - Particularly useful when liver imbalances are involved.
Nettle Leaf (Urtica urens ) - Nettles is one of our best female tonic herbs! It is an abundant source of trace minerals and vitamins and will help to enrich and promote milk production. One of the best sources for digestible iron.
Avoid: Large amounts of sage and parsley may decrease flow of milk.
Mother's Milk Tea © Millie Fodor
1part Blessed Thistle
1 part Fenugreek
1/2 part Hops
2 parts Fennel
1 part Nettle
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Serotonin stimulates prolactin
June 29 2006, 10:55 PM
http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/articl...actin.html
What controls prolactin production?
A neurotransmitter substance called dopamine controls the release of prolactin from the pituitary gland. Dopamine has the effect of inhibiting the secretion of prolactin from the pituitary gland. Other prolactin releasing factors exist that can stimulate prolactin secretion. These include serotonin and thyroid releasing hormones. The drugs available to treat high prolactin levels either mimic the inhibitory effect of dopamine or block the stimulating effect of serotonin (see under treatment).
Serotonin can be made in the body by ingesting the direct precursor 5HTP
http://www.triarco.com/industrymanufactu...rotain.pdf
Serotonin is the feel good happy medicine.
WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!about 5HTP these suppliments have been found to be contaminated by some manufacturers and can prove fatal if ingested make sure the brand is Peak X free!
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
In the presence of Progesterone Prolactin will not cause milk production
June 29 2006, 11:03 PM
Excerpted from :
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/m...55040/pg_2
Prolactin and Lactation. Prolactin is a peptide hormone that shares structural homologies with growth hormone. Its primary role is thought to be initiation and maintenance of milk production, but it is known17,18 also to play a role in over 300 cellular functions.
Prolactin activates expression of milk protein genes by binding to its receptor on the surface of milk-producing alveolar cells, with subsequent activation of the Janus family tyrosine kinase/signal transducers and activators of transcription pathway (JAK/STAT pathway).
During pregnancy, breast tissue matures and proliferates under the influence of prolactin and other hormones, as scrum prolactin levels rise steadily from prepregnancy levels of 10-25 ng/mL to 200-400 ng/mL at delivery. Milk production is inhibited by progesterone, although colostrum is produced late in pregnancy (lactogenesis I).
At delivery, a sharp drop in progesterone levels coupled with high levels of prolactin signal the start of copious milk production, usually between 2 to 4 days postpartum (lactogenesis II). In nonbreastfeeding mothers, serum prolactin levels return to prepregnancy levels within 3 weeks postpartum. In breastfeeding mothers, prolactin levels also drop, but more gradually.
Serum prolactin levels correlate with frequency of suckling and remain higher than in prepregnancy throughout lactation.18,20,21
Anonymous
(Login babyboo.)
thanku 4 the info wsdm xx
June 30 2006, 12:10 AM
im a bit confused....does breast milk turn to fat if we r stimulating prolactin but are not pregnent or brest feeding, or does no milk production take place and we wud jus grow?? soz
thanks
boo
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 1:08 AM
According to the article it states that
"during pregnancy, breast tissue matures and proliferates under the influence of prolactin and other hormones," and that
"Milk production is inhibited by progesterone, although colostrum is produced late in pregnancy "
So I am assuming that prolactin will cause breast tissue to grow and direct fat to the area in preparation for making milk and breastfeding.
A high level of progesterone in the body will inhibit prolactin from actually making milk but will cause the breasts to grow and store fat in anticipation of making milk.
verlinda
(Login verlinda)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 1:52 AM
I do understand...
thanks wsdm.
verlinda
Anonymous
(Login babyboo.)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 3:33 AM
thanks, i get it now xxx
Anonymous
(Login Surf.)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 4:10 AM
WSDM - Thank you for sharing! I love postings like this, it really helps to explain things at a deeper level!
Blessings to all the boobie goddesses!
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 5:43 AM
if you have virgin breasts (never breastfed before) your breast tissue will mature, proliferate and you will achive the full adult breast function. so every time after that you wont achive further breast tissue growth but there are some women who didnt fully mature and taking herbs that stimulate prolactin helps them to grow the tissue they would need to support a baby. what prolactin does is direct estrogen to store fat in the breast. without prolactin, estrogen will just store fat all over your body. prolactin helps to store fat in the breast to prepare the breast to make milk. as you know milk is mostly water and fat so if we skin the actual milk production we will just store fat in the breast. now progesterone and prolactin will work together to develope the breast just like prolactin works with estrogen to develope the breast. like wsdm mentioned progesterone will supress milk prodution so if a woman takes galactogoues and starts to leak milk (a rare occurance) it usually means that her progesterone levels are very low and raising it can stop milk production and help with breast growth.
and thanks WSDM for taking the time to gather all the info. it has inspired me to re evaluate my our routine that i plan on doing in in october.
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 1:42 PM
Yay SugarQ! Great post! You filled out the blank spots in my mind.
I havent really developed a routine yet, but I am comming close, I know for sure I will use several galactogogues and natural progesterone cream.
I have to research more indepth the herbal galactogogues and their other effects and then perform an allergy test... at this rate I think I might be starting my routine about the same time you will as well.
Hopefully I can get more information on the biochemistry of these hormones and get a larger picture of their interactions.
SugarQ, the only thing that bothers me currently is conflicting information about fat storing capacity of estrogen, some say estrogen directs fat to the lower body, some say it directs fat into the breast as in puberty, some say it helps store fat allover the body and some say it inhibits fat storage and that progesterone promotes fat storage. All those statements could actually be true what could change estrogens function is the presence of other hormone factors...such as in the case of NBE prolactin.
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 5:08 PM
Wsdm, in your last statement (last paragraph) i know exactly what you are talking about. i heard all those stories about how estrogen stores fat (mostly on the beboard). there seems to be a fat storing preference in the lower portion of our bodies and the last place women will get fat storage is in the breast. even men who get fat and gain weight show mostly preference of storing fat in lower female areas like the but, tummy, hips and thigns it only that we notice they gain the breast as well because we all know that men shouldnt have breasts.lol.
i really dont know for sure why fat stores the way it does exactly but i think it can be traced back to our primate cousines. we are the only mammles that carries inflated mammary tissue throughout our lives. apes only have enlarged mammary tissue when they are pregnant and nursing. it a fairly new evolutionary trate we have gathered that mainly serves to attract the males of our species. unlike male apes who are actually attracted to big butts rather then big breasts. i guess when we started standing upright we sort of moved some sexual charateristics from the back to the front.
the main function for having breasts is still to nurse babies so if you are not pregant then there really isnt any reason for the body to move fat so far up from the digestive processes to store it in the breast. its easier to store fat down below. there will always be a proportional destribution of at all over the body but the preference will usually be in the easy acess areas. so if you gain breast size and the onlything you have present in significant amounts is estrogen then chances are you have gained weight and/or at least in increased the size of your lower half in porportion to your breast size. now we talk about Prengancy and puberty being the only times women grow breasts. the things these two have in common are the hormones involved and fat deposition. girls gain the most weight just before and during puberty. weight plays a big role is how much hormones are in the body and how big the breasts are. if a girl is fat just before puberty then she is most likely to have large breast compared to a skinny child to took long to gain the 105 pound needed to bring on a menstral cycle. fat controls how estrogen and progesterone work. the more fat you have the most estrogen you have. lots of estrogen keeps women fat so when you try to loose weight through diet and exercise you are actually trying to get a preference for testosterone which works against estrogen. now with pregnancy some women can gain breast size. most of it is temperary but it is possible to deposite fat. that depend on how much excess fat you gain. some fat women gain if directly for supporting a baby but some women gain more then what is needed. just like with puberty when you have the presence of estrogen, progesterone and prolactin is such high amounts the there is more of a preference to gain in the breast area. so we then gain more fat in the breast area so we can then have easy access to make milk. skinny women have a hard time gaining excess body fat which is why they are so quick to loose their pregnancy weight and they dont really noticed much of a change in their cupsize.
in the f2f book lucille talks about BMI and making sure you have the right weight in proportion to your body size to support NBE. cause the body isnt going to take fat from other areas and just deposit it where you want. the fat comes from the foods you consume and store as fat. if you dont eat alot of fatty foods(like vegans and vegitarians) then its much harder to get the fat needed for NBE. also the quality of fats for NBE is specific. there are good fats that will actually help control hormone levels (actually lowering them) and bad fats that get stored quickly. its acually this fat that we want for NBE but we want to gather it is the small quantities that we consume them in a healthy diet.
i hope this helps a bit more.
pansyclub
(Login pansyclub)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 9:44 PM
I want to loose a litte weight, not much, just toning up my body a little bit. I am 5'3, 110 pounds, but have 26% body fat! I don't think loosing a litte will interfere with NBE... but what is better, toning up before or after NBE? maybe it doesn't matter...
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
June 30 2006, 11:45 PM
pansyclub I dont know the answer to that question, not sure it matters but if I were in your situation I would tone up first and then begin NBE.
SugarQ the post was really interesting. I have also read that saturated fats will help with NBE
" Some common examples of saturated fatty acids are butyric acid with 4 carbon atoms (contained in butter), lauric acid with 12 carbon atoms (contained in Breast milk, coconut oil, palm oil, and cocoa butter), myristic acid with 14 carbon atoms (contained in cow milk and dairy products), palmitic acid with 16 carbon atoms (contained in meat) and stearic acid with 18 carbon atoms (also contained in meat)."
Which explains the cocoa butter booby batters.
Coconut milk has a significant amount of Lauric acid in it.
fengshui
(Login fengshuiTW)
SENIOR MEMBER
SWEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!
July 1 2006, 9:39 AM
thank you so much wsdm and SugarQ!!!
these info r soooooo helpful and i am hopeful to break my stall again!!!
i am still not sure about when to use progesterone cream, i read Dr. John lee's article in Chinese (easier for me.
), which says it's safe to use everyday, then it also says to use starting on the 12th day on ur cycle till the 26th day.
so, can i apply it everyday or i should stop so i can get my period? if i use everyday then my period won't come?
i am soooooo confused.
thank you so much for sharing!! u girls r just angels!!!!
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
More on saturated fats...just a list
July 2 2006, 2:04 AM
As with everything moderationis key, when saturated fats are taken in conjunction with "good" fats saturated fats do not cause harm.
Foods that contain a high proportion of saturated fat are:
butter,
ghee,
suet,
tallow,
lard,
coconut oil,
cottonseed oil
palm kernel oil,
dairy products (especially cream and cheese), made from whole milk
parmesan cheese
coconut oil
coconut milk
palm oil
palm kernal oil
meat:
beef,
beef fat,
veal,
lamb,
pork,
lard,
poultry fat,
"Mother's milk provides a higher proportion of cholesterol than almost any other food. It also contains over 50% of its calories as fat, much of it saturated fat. Both cholesterol and saturated fat are essential for growth in babies and children, especially the development of the brain."
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Fengshui
July 2 2006, 2:11 AM
fengshui, I am researching the same thing. I am also trying to figure out when to administer progesterone. When I know more I will share, let me know what you find out as well.
chicky
(no login)
Prolactin
July 3 2006, 10:27 AM
Thanks wsdm and SugarQ for this information! SUPER!!!
However, I am a little confused... How do we get our body to stimulate more prolactin?
I cant seem to gather the right actions to do so that we can get more prolactin in the body. Please guide me...
Also, I cant fully understand the virgin breasts thing.. Is it a good thing for virgin breasts or not? LOL sorry.. but I am slow sometimes.
Thank you so much for your timeS !!!
blueorchid
(no login)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 3 2006, 2:13 PM
Hey as chicky mentioned is it good for virgin breasts ??? and how to activate prolactic ??? what foods should we eat??
SugarQ
(Login SugarQ)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 3 2006, 2:31 PM
prolactin works a bit more in the way we hope for in virgin breasts but women who have already had a child and breastfed tend to respond better to prolactin. its something that has been found with the brava system and with herbal pills. one reason why women who have been pregnant before tend to respond better is cause the body is already accustom to making producing such large amounts of prolactin so its easy to stimuate it in a body that already knows how to make huge amounts of it. pregnancy is pretty much the only time the body produces such high amounts of prolactin naturally and of a woman hasnt breastfed before its very difficult to induce prolactin secreation at the same rate as someone who has done it before.
in rare instances some women who do NBE do actually induce lactation by accident but its usually the women who have been pregant or recently stopped breastfeeding who are affected. usually the cause of the lactation is low progesterone levels that dont balance off the elevated prolactin levels.
Anonymous
(no login)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 3 2006, 6:24 PM
So if someone doesn't eat a lot of fat because she doesn't want to gain weight in the lower body can still grow boobs?I mean by eating moderate amount of fat like the ones found in milk,olive oil etc(in general healthy choises) and by massaging for prolactin stimulation can still grow boobs?Or she has to gain a lot of weight and massage to grow hwr boobs?I want larger boobs but I don't want a bigger butt,cellulite or becoming fat!!!!!
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 3 2006, 9:27 PM
Anon, (its so funny that you are anonymous),I dont think it is necessary to eat a whole lot of fat but be aware you must incorporate some saturated fats and cholesterol in your diet. Hormones (most) are synthesized from cholesterol, it is necessary to eat them, but as with all things in life balance/moderation is key.
fawn
(no login)
Prolactin, etc.
July 4 2006, 8:16 PM
The production of prolactin is really an interesting thing.
Progesterone WILL reduce the amount of prolactin produced. So will dopamine.
Clinically studies show that prolactin reduces the amount of an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase in the lower body, while increasing it in the breasts. LPL is the enzyme that shuttles fatty acids out of the bloodstream and into fat cells and tissues.
Estrogen and anti-dopamine agents will increase prolactin. Some women with too much estrogen have trouble stopping lactation.
Natural anti-dopamine agents include kava-kava and alcohol. One of the old wives tales about a beer helping milk production while nursing is very true. Between the hops and the alcohol, it's a natural.
Fawn
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 4 2006, 11:16 PM
Hey there Fawn! Glad you made it to Eve's
You said
"Progesterone WILL reduce the amount of prolactin produced. So will dopamine."
The thing is this isnât progesterone still necessary for breast growth? Isnât progesterone a precursor to estrogen and needed to have elevated estrogen levels?
This is where I am a little confused will progesterone reduce prolactin levels or reduce the effect of prolactin ability to trigger milk production.
"Clinically studies show that prolactin reduces the amount of an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase in the lower body, while increasing it in the breasts. LPL is the enzyme that shuttles fatty acids out of the bloodstream and into fat cells and tissues."
Great I will see if I can do a pubmed search and learn more.
"Estrogen and anti-dopamine agents will increase prolactin. Some women with too much estrogen have trouble stopping lactation. Natural anti-dopamine agents include kava-kava and alcohol. One of the old wives tales about a beer helping milk production while nursing is very true. Between the hops and the alcohol, it's a natural."
I am not a big fan of dopamine agonists, low dopamine levels have been associated with Parkinsonâs disease and it turns me off to lower dopamine levels, what about upgrading serotonin by ingesting its direct precursor 5HTP (thatâs peak X free). Serotonin boosts prolactin production and makes you feel good, its a natural antidepressant.
chicky
(Login cheeek)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 4 2006, 11:37 PM
Thanks for more info posted! This gets more and more interesting!
Ok so virgin breasts will respond slower as compared to a woman who's been pregnant before....
How about the prolactin? How do we actually increase amounts of prolactin in our body.. The idea of drinking is pretty.. amusing haha because I'm imagining beer bellies! hehe
Do Galactogogues induce prolactin?
Or how about to increase serotonin by taking the 5HTP (that is peak x free)? If so, where can we get this from?
Oh boy.. I'm confused about the progesterone stuff also..
I cant wait to hear more!
You guys are great!!!
fawnmarie
(Login fawnmarie)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 3:46 AM
>>The thing is this isnât progesterone still necessary for breast growth? Isnât progesterone a precursor to estrogen and needed to have elevated estrogen levels?
Progesterone is a precursor for estrogen, but not throughout the body, I believe the conversion takes place in the ovaries - would have to look closer at that. Progesterone is necessary for the proliferation of the glands and ducts in the breasts - not for the fat cells, and the amount of fat cells is what determines your cup size. Women who have had babies and women over the age of 35 (or so) will undergo a natural process of atrophy where the glandular and duct tissue atrophy faster than it regrows (this growth/atrophy in the ducts and glands takes place throughout the month according to the phase of your cycle). So, progesterone is good for maintaining firmness by maintaining ducts and glands for women who have had children and those over 35.
>>>This is where I am a little confused will progesterone reduce prolactin levels or reduce the effect of prolactin ability to trigger milk production.
Yes it will. It reduces the effect of prolactin on the breast cells.
>>>"Clinically studies show that prolactin reduces the amount of an enzyme called lipoprotein lipase in the lower body, while increasing it in the breasts. LPL is the enzyme that shuttles fatty acids out of the bloodstream and into fat cells and tissues."
>>>Great I will see if I can do a pubmed search and learn more.
Yes, or medscape. If you get a chance, visit my website in the articles section, I may have a write up and/or references there about prolactin and other neurochemicals in breast enlargement.
>>>I am not a big fan of dopamine agonists, low dopamine levels have been associated with Parkinsonâs disease and it turns me off to lower dopamine levels, what about upgrading serotonin by ingesting its direct precursor 5HTP (thatâs peak X free). Serotonin boosts prolactin production and makes you feel good, its a natural antidepressant.
Seratonin is not a balancing neurochemical for dopamine - the two are not inverse. If anything seratonin balances against norepinepherine. Dopamine agonists, by definition, reduce the ability for the brain to reuptake dopamine, they do not specifically reduce the amount produced, and it's dose-dependent (i.e. as soon as you stop taking the agonist, the dopamine is again "used"). It's funny you say that it "turns you off" because that's exactly (unfortunately) what dopamine does - is turn you on. It's what makes you feel excited.
Personally, I hate 5HTP - it gives me nightmares. I prefer St. Johns Wort, honestly.
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 7:57 AM
You touched on a lot of things...
do you mean the BE Board? If so I will lok for your posts.
St. John's wort active ingredient is hyperforin which inhibits the neuronal uptake of many neurotransmitters, therefore increasing their effective activity.
Hyperforin increases the effectiveness of norepinephrine, dopamine, L-glutamate, and gamma-amino butyric acid (GABA), as well as serotonin.
Source:
http://www.newhope.com/nutritionsciencen...stjohn.cfm
St Johns seems to be broad spectrum, how effective then can it be on prolactin production?
faerycat
(Login faerycat)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 9:42 AM
Lolol!! the fun way to raise prolactin levels ;-P~
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/...5.900.html
It says -
LOVERS know only too well that men usually need a "recovery period" after orgasm, and that sexual intercourse with orgasm is more satisfying than an orgasm from masturbation alone. Now scientists think the two phenomena might be linked.
Following orgasm, the hormone prolactin is released into the bloodstream in both men and women. The hormone makes us feel satiated by countering the effect of dopamine, which is released during sexual arousal.
Stuart Brody of the University of Paisley, UK, and Tillmann Krüger of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, measured blood prolactin levels in male and female volunteers who watched erotic films before engaging in masturbation or sexual intercourse to orgasm in the laboratory.
Surprisingly, after orgasm from sexual intercourse, the increase in blood prolactin levels is 400 per cent higher in both sexes compared with after orgasm from masturbation (Biological Psychology, vol 71, p 312).
This explains why orgasm from intercourse is more satisfying than masturbation, says Brody. Since elevated levels of prolactin have been linked to erectile dysfunction, this may also explain why most men need a recovery period after sex.
=^_^= x
Making mountains from molehills.
fawnmarie
(Login fawnmarie)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 1:42 PM
Yes, St. John's Wort is pretty broad spectrum, and no, it has nothing to do with raising prolactin.
Because, as I said, seratonin has nothing to do with dopamine levels. So it doesn't matter if you use St. Johns Wort or 5HTP, neither will have any effect on dopamine OR prolactin.
Dopamine uptake can be reduced through 1) kava kava 2) alcohol or 3) Webutrin HCL prescription med. Reducing dopamine naturally increases prolactin.
Massage, in particular nipple stimulation, increasing prolactin.
I meant my Botanical Beauty Lab website - there's a ton of information there I wrote up on BE and the science behind it. Addy is
http://www.botanicalbeautylab.com
I'm a long time member of the BEBoard, and many of my posts there have some data, too.
Fawn
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 3:31 PM
>>>>"serotonin has nothing to do with dopamine levels. So it doesn't matter if you use St. Johns Wort or 5HTP, neither will have any effect on dopamine OR prolactin."<<<<
Thatâs were I am a little confused because though serotonin does not affect dopamine it does increase Prolactin levels.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9822800&dopt=Abstract
Thatâs why I am keen on it because it does not affect dopamine levels but it does increase prolactin. I am not interested in lowering dopamine levels thus the effects in the body. I like dopamine, I even like the name dope-amine, lol.
Are you saying then that regardless of what other method you use to increase prolactin, dopamine will work against all other methods of increasing prolactin?
Did taking 5HTP literally give you nightmares?...that is so interesting, I always find when I have a nightmare it is indicative of an issue I have to resolve in reality, some of my nightmares have been the most profound diagnosis of issues my conscious mind will not deal with or have lead me into a discussion with myself to unearth turmoil....dreams are so profound, its like reaching into your soul, like your subconscious and conscious mind having a dialog it creates such a feeling of unity and peace for meâ¦I want my subconscious (master regulator of physical processes) to be down with my conscious quest, I think that is why we do hypnosisâ¦ok I am digressing lolâ¦
Your website is really, really cool and I am going through the articles now. I like that you have pictures of women of different races in the NBE section. Being black I sometimes just feel left out a lot of the times.
I really have a deep desire to understand whatâs going on. So pardon all the questions, I have a thousand more, and it is great to speak with people like you and SugarQ who have done so much research on NBE over the years.
wsdm
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 3:54 PM
ok I take it back your website is not just really cool, it is tha bomb!!! very informative.
chicky
(Login cheeek)
Wow
July 5 2006, 4:14 PM
WOw there's so much information! And it gets.. tough to understand sometimes.. for me at least
But I would really like to know what's going on.. and how to get this working haha
Please bear with me if my questions sound silly.
Ok so now progesterone is NOT GOOD for NBE since it reduces the effect of prolactin? So we shouldnt use any progesterone cream unless the PMS/ mood swings etc.. get too serious right?
For woman who have not had children and under 35, shouldnt use them at all then?
So to increase prolactin, we are to take 1) kava kava 2) alcohol 3) Webutrin HCL prescription med ?
Hmmm how do we go about doing.. nipple stimulation?? *scratch head* LOL
Fawn
(Login fawnmarie)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 5:53 PM
Glad you like the site, wsdm - I did an awful lot of research and there is even more information on the BEB board.
Massage and nipple stimulation during massage can increase prolaction.
I definitely don't recommend going out and getting a prescription for Wellbutrin, however if you like, you can use kava kava (is already in some commercial breast formulas) or have a beer a couple times a week.
Seratonin increases relaxation which makes it easier to produce prolactin. You aren't really decreasing dopamine, you are just inhibiting from but uptaken by blocking the receptors with a dopamine agonist.
Sam-e and 5HTP both gave me nightmares. Pregnenolone is also infamous for stimulating vivid dreams. I rarely remember dreams and rarely have nightmares unless I'm extremely over-tired. And 5HTP definitely have me nightmares.
Anonymous
(Login rkai93)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 5 2006, 11:32 PM
so fawn, if one is on wellbutrin (for other reasons, like staying away from ciggies)
it can actually be beneficial for NBE?
awesome!
Anonymous
(Login wsdm)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 8 2006, 8:32 PM
The question now remains progesterone or no progesterone?
fengshui
(Login fengshuiTW)
SENIOR MEMBER
i already give it a go!! :-)
July 8 2006, 9:14 PM
wsdm, even if i am sooo confused, i've decided to try it since i just received my order.
ther is this nice lady (Gisela) in the other forum tried it for 2 months and had nothing happened to her. but i will give it a try cuz from Dr. John Lee's article seems it's safe to use.
i am drinking the xtra-punch feet soup now and hoping progesterone cream will help storing fat on my boobies. i don't know it's the super soup or the cream, my boobies r fuller (i can really feel it by my hands when massaging them).
i will let u know how it comes out. :-)
fawnmarie
(Login fawnmarie)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
July 18 2006, 1:39 AM
Progesterone is especially good for older women, but it will not help with breast enlargement except to help restore glandular tissue (which restores firmness and some shape).
And yes - if you are taking wellbutrin for smoking, it can only help. One of my most prolific growing periods was when I was using wellbutrin and I didn't even know why!
Fawn
Tap
(Login Tap69)
EVE MEMBERS
help me out on the progesterone thing.
July 18 2006, 2:39 AM
What a coincidence i just popped in here to learn more about progesterone... and a post is right here..... Help me out here girls.
I am 37 years old and have 2 kids. I was using wild yam cream in my massages, I WAS taking wild yam pills with my herbs, BUT stopped both when i switched to a new experiment with Pueraria Mirifica. I think the PM upset my estrogen balance which was previously very good. I notice you said that progesterone doesn't help growth in older women (I consider myself older), but does help with firmness. WELL MY FIRMNESS HAS CHANGED since dropping the wild yam cream. The last 2 cycles have not "measured up". IS THIS A COINCIDENCE?
I've had to add fenugreek and Saw Palmetto back into my mix, because my mood swings went terrible, and growth went south.... not enough prolactin happening.
Based on the info i've just given you all (wisdom and SugarQ help).. when my PM is finished should i put either wild yam cream or wild yam pills into my old fenugreek routine?????
Are you confused yet! AHHHHH!!!
Love
Tap
Alexia
(no login)
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 27 2007, 7:32 PM
BUMP for the galactogogues
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 4:38 PM
Inetresting to see how much galactogogue talk there has been in the past! I wonder why didn't anyone actually try GR untill now tho??
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 4:43 PM
It does sound like a good herb, but don't know if I could get it here. Never remeber seeing it on shelves. Sometimes availability is a big factor on what people can try, but I am interested!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 5:02 PM
Tell me about it Snowflake, I'm in south EU and availability here sucks. There's hardly any herbs in stores, I only get flaxseed oil at the supermarket, everything else on line. I think everyone said they are buying GR on line, either from Motherlove, or from an European distributor (I was hardly able to fin two!). It's a bit of an expensive herb tho, but it may be a very good shot at NBE.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 5:10 PM
Do you know which European distributor? I can only find the motherlove one on some uk websites and it's really expensive - about 65% cost of WU!
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 5:20 PM
Yes I agree it sucks, and I hate having to order by mail or on line, very hard to keep my little pojects to myself when Hubby would track everything I do with credit card. Just don't need hassle with him thinking I am wasting money on my boob projects. Its my secret life that also hinders my experiments, I know sad, but that is the way it is for right now.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 5:51 PM
Lousie, here are the two I've found:
http://www.breastfeedingheaven.co.uk/
http://www.mumstheword.com/
I ordered from the fist one, two bottles is 1 month worth and it cost me a bit over 50 euros with shipping, which is as much as 1 month of WU! Which one did you find?
Snowflake, you might pay an on-line store with a bank transfer if you don't want to use credit card. That's what to do cause I don't own a credit card, I email a seller first and ask if they accept it, and usually the smaller ones do. The bigger ones tho usually don't, neither do ebay sellers.
This message has been edited by -Moon- on Aug 28, 2007 5:52 PM
Davilee
(Login Davi-lee)
Wow Great topic discussion!!!
August 28 2007, 6:05 PM
Hey all,..something I wanted to ask somebody about and hadnt found the right oppurtunity..well,this is a good topic thread to bring this up...
Okay...Does stimulating your nipples and areola, which for me causes a lot of pleasure sensations,THEN cause your dopamine levels to rise and then shut down your prolactin production??
I do the nipple/areola stim. to mimic nursing,and it feels really good.
So,is the pleasure from that directly causing the raising of my dopamine levels? Ive always wanted to ask someone,but I hadnt felt the right point to bring it up.
I zoomed down the thread list,now I'll go back and read through them..this is a long thread for such a short time.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 6:06 PM
Moon, thanks, those were the ones I'd seen. I may be coming off herbs totally to get proper tests done but after that I was thinking of WU (7 pills per day instead of 6) + dianette for the cyproterone + goat's rue + borage oil + flax seed oil + marine collagen.
All I need now is to find something strong tasting that I can put it all in to eat it - swallowing large caps make me gag (and don't really fancy the suppository idea!) - any thoughts?
Snowflake
(Login GoldSnowflake)
EVE MEMBERS
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 6:21 PM
Thanks Moon! I will check into that.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 6:36 PM
DaviLee - Simply rubing the nipples doesn't cause prolactin secretion, it has to be precisely sucking. Rubbing would cause sexual arrousal, and I dunno how much dopamine that would produce. But it's important to undrstand that these hormone regulation loops are not so simple as dopamine inhibits prolactin - it's relevant in what circumstances and where and when. Dopamine inhibits prolactin when released from certin neurons of hypothalamus which lead to anterior hypophysis. Dopamine actually keeps prolactin levels in the normal range by this action - when those neurons are cut, the secretion of prolactin rises abnormally. There are other sites of dopamine release in the bain which travel in other neuronal pathways and don't have that effect.
Louise, that might be too much herb! WU conthais quite significent doses, and you have to count all estrogenic herbs together. I wouldn't recomend taking a high dose, there's a risk of desensitising your receptors and if that happens it's forever. That's why it's so important to take just enoguh to work, but as low dose as possible. 2000 to 2500 mg of all estrogenic herb is quite enoguh imo.
Snowflake, you're wellcome.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 7:58 PM
Moon, doesn't WU contain way more than the 2000-2500mg you suggest? I mean its equivalent to 1800mg of fenugreek alone. Was also considering hops as Eve used quite a few cereals. Or maybe PM....just want to stick to WU at the moment and try to find something I can disguise the collagen in - it's disgusting in taste and a horrible sticky texture! Might try mixing with peanut butter again.
Wendy
(Login GrowWendy)
I respectfully disagree with Moon
August 28 2007, 10:35 PM
From everything I have read massage &/or rubbing does increase prolactin & oxytocin (this is the happy hormone). It does not need to be sucking.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 28 2007, 11:10 PM
I remember reading a study on pubmed that said rubing the nipples doesn't increase prolactin but only sucking, but as far as whole breast goes, massaging does increase prolactin if you target precisely the lobes and apply enoguh pressure. Which is why fingertip or knuckle massage is a lot better than palm massage like the chi rotations.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 29 2007, 10:02 AM
Hi Moon,
Not sure if your article gave this much detail but in terms of nipple sucking - how long / often per day would this need to be done and how hard? (Yes, I need graphic details!) Would I have to simulate baby feeding so every couple of hours? How hard does a baby suck?!
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 29 2007, 10:11 AM
Hmm, well there are two hormons that are released in response to sucling - oxitocin and prolactin. Oxitocin is released within seconds after the stimulus and enables milk letdown by causin contractions of the ducts. Prolactin I think is released in a more tonic manner to sustain the lactating tissue. Anyway, one member of this forum, Jenny, was using a sucking device on her nipples and she accidentally left it on for I think she said between 30 and 45 minutes, and she overstimulated her nipples to produce enormous levels of prolactin,and suffered serious health conscequences. So I think a few minutes of sucking a few tims a day would be enough, about as much time as a baby sucks when you are pregnant.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 29 2007, 12:38 PM
Oh, Louise, I didn't even notice your post abou WU earlier - Yes WU conains quite high doses of herbs. I was thinking the strong estrogenic herbs together would be enoguh at 2000 to 2500, I would count under that FG and maybe soy. The rest such as fennel, hops and barely etc are weaker estrogenic herbs, now that doesn't mean that they work less well, but in my oppinion that they are more of 'safe' herbs for the risk of overdosing. So WU contains almost 5000 mg of all estrogenic herbs together, but only half of that is strong estrogenic, which is way different than taking 5000 mg of FG for example which would stall you in a minute. So in my oppinion WU is pretty close to the upmost limit of optimal dose. I think I remember many skinny petite girls took 5 or 4 pills instead of the recomended 6 and did better.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 29 2007, 1:09 PM
Moon, interesting you should say that I'm 5'1, 110 lbs, when I first started WU I had tingles and aches constantly after about 4 days. Since then I get the occasioanal nipple tingling and occasional feeling the boobs want to be rubbed but nothing else - difficult to judge sensations as I'm either at work and not paying attention or have Brava on which can feel a bit weird anyway. I'm at least 1-1.5 inch bigger than when I started (about 0.5-1 cup) but again due to Brava it's hard to tell because you haven't got a true result until you leave it off for a fortnight. The fact that I responded so fast - would you say I should consider a week off to see if the feelings come back as the levels drop? To look at me I am a midget but not really 'petite' - if you scaled me up to normal height I'd be quite chunky round the shoulders, hips, upper arms and thighs.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 29 2007, 1:12 PM
p.s. I have quite a bit of soy protein and soy nuggets in my slim fast bars - will that be eostrogenic or is it only the separate isoflavones?
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Moon - medical advice needed!
August 30 2007, 4:52 PM
Moon, is there a particular time in your cycle that would be a good or bad time to do the stall test? I've never had period related boob feelings before and on bcp so not ovulating. Is it likely to cause breakthrough bleeding? If so would it be better to stop WU maybe a day or two before my 7 pill free days?
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 30 2007, 7:01 PM
Lousie - the soy in the protein bars does definitely add up to your phytoestrogen inteake, but it's hard to say how much. In my oppinion, it would be good if you did a week or two long brake to see if you get any more pains and potentially determine if you have been taking too much. I don't imagine what kind of built you have in those feet and lbs though lol.
The interesting thing at your program is that you also use brava, which should increase the blood supply to the brests right? I'm not quite sure how much tho as I don't know how strong suction brava creats. I use suction from a manual pump and I apply a pressure that makes my boob turn purple with increased blood. I feel that suction is helping greatly my herbal NBE because I get more pains when I apply suction. The interesting thing is that I'm the most likely to obtain pains with the help of suction in the late afternoon, which coincides with the part of the day when growth hormone has a peak. Did you ever observe any similar effects of suction on your progress?
As for a specific time to do the stall test, I haven't heard anything about that but if I theorise a bit - if you did it in the folicular phase (1. half of the cycle), you'd be back on herbs in the lutheal phase which is the optimal time for growth. As folicular phase is less optimal for growth, if you did get pains in that time when preforming the test, it would be a certain sign that you've stalled. However, the lutheal phase would be more 'sensitive' for the test - maybe you wouldn't get pains in the folicular phase cause it's not optimal for growth, but you would in the lutheal so you'd be stalled. However, I think that it shouldn't make that a huge difference, it would probably be ok to perform it at any time.
This message has been edited by -Moon- on Aug 30, 2007 7:03 PM
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 30 2007, 7:11 PM
If I'm on bcp do I have a follicular and luteal phase? I thought I didn't do any of that as not ovulating then when I take 7 day break the hormone levels drop like a miscarriage and endometrium is lost giving the appearance of a period. If you look at Diana1978 pics I have similar upper body with big backside and chubby legs and arms.
If I use water to get extra suction without bruising boobs turn purple due to hard suction otherwise not much different but slightly white due to swelling, then after maybe 4 hours htey go red which I think is the increased circulation taking the fluid away. Don't get any feeling at specific time of day, but nipples tingle afte rabout 2 hours of taking domes off. Originally got tingles all day then aches at night.
Obviouslt Brava is stretching the skin, do you think that streched skin might be more able to absorb stuff? I usually put PM cream on when take domes off and occasionally just use a little with domes on.
Technically I would think that Brava would help herbal growth as it is encouraging the tissue to come outwards and like you said stimulating the circulation.
Moon
(Login -Moon-)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 30 2007, 7:48 PM
I think BCP actually doesn't afefct the levels of hormons relevant for NBE. It adds the ammount of estrogen and pregesetrone to the endogenous ammount; I don't know what the ammount of endogenously synthetised hormones are per day, but the ammounts in BCP ar small compared to it. BCP mainly inhibits FSH and LH, which are the two hormons that mediate ovulation, so that ovas don't mature and aren't secreted, but the rest of the ovary funtions normally, so you should still have the typical hormone levels profile for one month (progesterone high in the lutheal phase, estrogen high at the end of folicular phase and again at the end of lutheal phase).
The effects of brava you describe are inetresting, cause I don't think that redness that apprears after hours is increased blood flow - I experience increased blood flow immediately, because it is a pure physical response - distention of vessles due to the change of pressure across their walls, due to a fall in the outside pressure. The redness you describe I think is more likely irritation. Aches at night also seem consistent with my hypothesis on the relevance of growth hormone for pains, as GH is highest at night during sleep.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 30 2007, 8:04 PM
Sorry I didn't describe well. I have redness where the rims touch, worse on the hard bits like the breast bone, that goes slowly over the day and that area can be itchy. But the actual boobs become red as the swelling drains. I'll ring Brava and ask them if they know what this represents. If I really use a lot of suction the go scary red-purple and I can see veins in there but I'm worried that it may cause damage to do that. Also interestingly I can ramp up the suction as the swelling increases but if I suck too much straight away I get a hickey where the rim has pressed the skin too hard. I will do as you suggest with the stall test. Also difficult to tell nipple sensations when it's so damn cold!
When I first started using WU I was abroad where they didn't have slim fast, then I came home and got into my diet which would correspond sort of when I stopped getting feelings so maybe it's a soy overdose.
What do you think about Brava increasing the effect of topical stuff?
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
August 30 2007, 8:06 PM
p.s. I've also thought about growth hormone, surely this adds to boobs during puberty?
Davilee
(Login Davi-lee)
Back a bit too nursing simulation....
August 30 2007, 8:59 PM
Thanks by the way Moon,...
I dont just rub my nipples i pull them hard and try to pull the areoli out also in a rhythmic way that would mimic nursing pressure.
I read on .mamadearest.com,in their induced lactation protocols,that they recommend at a certain stage of development using a duel breast pump for like twenty minutes every few hours if possible....and thats along with their drug profile.
I just mention that because its a similar function that were talking about
Davilee
(Login Davi-lee)
on serotonin & dopamine...
September 1 2007, 10:17 AM
So,I was trying to decipher exactly what *IS produced during pleasure sensations in the body overall.....serotonin or dopamine?..or both?
I'm still not sure about it ,as Ive been lazy and not doing my I-Net research.
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
October 17 2007, 4:40 PM
Just been researching soy and apparently a lot of processed soy loses it's isoflavones so soy in processed foods may just be like any other protein but having no hormonal effect
WiccanWoman
(Login WiccanWoman123)
SENIOR MEMBER
Re: Galactogogues, Prolactin and Fat Storage in breasts
October 17 2007, 8:15 PM
interesting.. "like wsdm mentioned progesterone will supress milk prodution so if a woman takes galactogoues and starts to leak milk (a rare occurance) it usually means that her progesterone levels are very low and raising it can stop milk production and help with breast growth"
Since starting on PC, my "leaking" of colestrum has almost gone away. I've had that since I had my daughter 8 years ago !
