[AbiDrew85]

Actually you're right, and that's WHY it's a necessary hormone as well. And it's also why conventional wisdom is, as usual, wrong about the cause of pear shape. Progesterone does not need to be counterbalanced to continue to increase the width of the hips, while estrogen does need to be balanced by progesterone in order to grow breast. So it's P dom, not E dom, that causes pear shape. E dom is more likely to just cause greater fat deposit all over and make you apple shaped.

ok, I might learn something new and important here! if you don't mind abi, what is the conventional wisdom about pear shape, just estrogen dominance, when in reality it's progesterone dominance? I wasn't aware there could be a progesterone dominance. what do you think about the progesterone therapy website and the author's claims over there?

It seems accurate, as far as it goes. There was a doctor, I don't remember his name, who was really big at prescribing progesterone when estrogen was high, and his site is actually where I originally saw both forms of female imbalance. It seems estrogen dominance is far more prevalent, but progesterone dominance DOES occur as well.

[missboobshirt]

Okay I will give you a little info on my issue Anyover88 lol-- so I had a really bad weight loss (stress/nutrition/hormones) I had a C cup got down to a small B. When I fixed my hormones/nutrition (NBE) I got up to a DD cup. I am happy but I still suffer from fluctuations and can get down to a D cup. I don't really understand it but when I used PM (estrogen based herb) I had pain in my breast like they were growing but they actually shrunk! They were getting emptier.. and the more E based herbs I used.. like fenugreek, I had the same reaction. To this day I take absolutely no E based herbs. I work on my amino acids, vitamins, calisthenics, proteins, collagens, and progesterone but I stay clear of anything E.

so in theory, low dose progesterone might be good for women who are not responding much to estrogenic herbs, high dose progesterone might be better for women who experience side effects from estrogenic herbs or have too much DHT activity. I think!

That is exactly what happened for me.

so here's another thought. maybe cycling progesterone is unnecessary, but maybe taking progesterone throughout the cycle, increasing dosage for luteal phase and decreasing for follicular? or taking a fairly small steady dosage in follicular and luteal to sensitize to estrogen when it comes around? I also wonder now if progesterone can even act locally on the breasts.

I wondered this as well but I never wanted to chance throwing my hormone levels off! So I keep cycling it. I have tried doing what TPrincess does, it does work. But I seemed to have plateaued.

Again, back to your decreases you mentioned in this older little thread. Estrogen activity whether through high estrogen or high estrogen sensitivity causes edema, or fluid retention, a common symptom of estrogen dominance, which might explain why the breasts tend to balloon up at certain points in the cycle. since progesterone is a counterbalance to estrogen in higher amounts, and breasts tend to not swell as much at certain points, this could be due to progesterone shutting down estrogen receptors, reducing edema/fluid buildup. this might explain your shrinkage you mentioned missB! I am not sure if swelling is necessary for growth, is a side effect, or precursor to growth. maybe the little pendulum swing between progesterone and estrogen is necessary for incremental growth.

another point to be made is that, I think if estrogen is like other substances and hormones, high amounts of estrogen or xenoestrogens for example might desensitize estrogen receptors. progesterone could in theory revitalize these receptors, which would again make it very useful for boobie growth in moderation. but it could also, again, exacerbate estrogen dominance symptoms.

now Missb I am not suggesting you alter your program if it's working for you already as it clearly is! I wonder if any of this is even useful or if I just made a mess! I hope our resident experts can weigh in here. thank you everyone for being patient and kind here.

this is really, really interesting. The only thing I have to say to that is, to my knowledge, I thought it was progesterone that caused fluid retention? that is why we get pmsy type, bloated feelings during luteal phase?

and this: "xenoestrogens for example might desensitize estrogen receptors." makes a lot of sense too.. at the time of my weight loss my nutrition was horrible and I knew I was taking in a lot of xenoestrogens.. but why would I have the same issue on something like PM which has no xenoestrogens? I feel like me and E just dont get along for some reason!

but after cleaning up my diet, I have noticed big changes.. I do know it is because I stopped taking in as many xenoestrogens.. do you know how one might flush out more xenoestrogens? (besides DIM)

Annnd thank you! I appreciate this information, any clue as to what may be wrong with me is helpful.. it is my fluctuations that keep me with my NBE, they depress me :/ no one really has a clue as to what it could be! This was very helpful, thank you!

[AbiDrew85]

and this: "xenoestrogens for example might desensitize estrogen receptors." makes a lot of sense too.. at the time of my weight loss my nutrition was horrible and I knew I was taking in a lot of xenoestrogens.. but why would I have the same issue on something like PM which has no xenoestrogens? I feel like me and E just dont get along for some reason!

but after cleaning up my diet, I have noticed big changes.. I do know it is because I stopped taking in as many xenoestrogens.. do you know how one might flush out more xenoestrogens? (besides DIM)

You are under a slight misunderstanding of what xenoestrogen and phytoestrogen means. A xenoestrogen is ANY form of estrogen that originally comes from outside the body. A phytoestrogen is a xenoestrogen whose source is specifically plants. So you WERE having the issue from something with xenoestrogens. PM, which has phytoestrogens, which are xenoestrogens from a plant. DIM is actually a phytoestrogen as well, since it comes from cruciferous vegetables, but, as I said, all phytoestrogens are in fact also xenoestrogens. The opposite is not true though, there are certainly xenoestrogens in the environment that do not come from plant sources, many more than are in plants are in industrial pollutants.

[missboobshirt]

and this: "xenoestrogens for example might desensitize estrogen receptors." makes a lot of sense too.. at the time of my weight loss my nutrition was horrible and I knew I was taking in a lot of xenoestrogens.. but why would I have the same issue on something like PM which has no xenoestrogens? I feel like me and E just dont get along for some reason!

but after cleaning up my diet, I have noticed big changes.. I do know it is because I stopped taking in as many xenoestrogens.. do you know how one might flush out more xenoestrogens? (besides DIM)

You are under a slight misunderstanding of what xenoestrogen and phytoestrogen means. A xenoestrogen is ANY form of estrogen that originally comes from outside the body. A phytoestrogen is a xenoestrogen whose source is specifically plants. So you WERE having the issue from something with xenoestrogens. PM, which has phytoestrogens, which are xenoestrogens from a plant. DIM is actually a phytoestrogen as well, since it comes from cruciferous vegetables, but, as I said, all phytoestrogens are in fact also xenoestrogens. The opposite is not true though, there are certainly xenoestrogens in the environment that do not come from plant sources, many more than are in plants are in industrial pollutants.

Okay, I see. Thank you. I was thinking that xenoestrogens were found in bad food and is basically "bad estrogen" and can unbalance good estrogen in your body. Could my fluctuations come from too much estrogen, maybe? That was my theory-- that I was E dom.

and yes, ultimately you are right because no matter what estrogen was going into my body, it was causing me to shrink. So weird.

[AbiDrew85]

Okay, I see. Thank you. I was thinking that xenoestrogens were found in bad food and is basically "bad estrogen" and can unbalance good estrogen in your body. Could my fluctuations come from too much estrogen, maybe? That was my theory-- that I was E dom.

and yes, ultimately you are right because no matter what estrogen was going into my body, it was causing me to shrink. So weird.

It's okay, it's a fairly common misunderstanding. Xenoestrogens are never innately "good" or "bad", those determinations can only be made based on the effect they have on YOUR body.

It sounds like you might be E dom. I'm not going to put my neck in a noose and say you ARE, because I'm not a doctor. Have you ever been tested? I can't remember.

[missboobshirt]

It's okay, it's a fairly common misunderstanding. Xenoestrogens are never innately "good" or "bad", those determinations can only be made based on the effect they have on YOUR body.

It sounds like you might be E dom. I'm not going to put my neck in a noose and say you ARE, because I'm not a doctor. Have you ever been tested? I can't remember.

Yeah they did but they didn't check anything worth while :/

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=23128&pid=169513#pid169513

-___-

edit: its weird bc now that I used PC, I am wondering if using E herbs now would work / cause growth.. because imo I am pear shaped and you said that P dom is more pear shaped.

[AbiDrew85]

Ugh. It looks like the only applicable hormones missing are the two that are most needed! They didn't test either E or P at all. If you can order independent labs for just those two or some other limited set as long as they include those two, I would, but only while I'm completely clear of any supplements for a while. You'd likely have to intentionally break at least 2 months, one to make sure your regular cycle reasserted itself, and the second to actually take a full cycle's worth of tests of E and P. They should have you test each at least twice, and better if it's three times at different parts of the cycle.

Oh, and something you asked on that post, I don't know if I ever said anything in your thread about it, but your DHEAs was fine. DHEAs is a primarily male hormone anyways, as you can see by the reference numbers and the fact that even the low point in the male range is much higher. As long as you aren't UNDER the minimum for females, you're okay. Supplementing DHEAs is always a chancy business as well, there's a very strong likelihood of just unbalancing yourself worse.

[missboobshirt]

Ugh. It looks like the only applicable hormones missing are the two that are most needed! They didn't test either E or P at all. If you can order independent labs for just those two or some other limited set as long as they include those two, I would, but only while I'm completely clear of any supplements for a while. You'd likely have to intentionally break at least 2 months, one to make sure your regular cycle reasserted itself, and the second to actually take a full cycle's worth of tests of E and P. They should have you test each at least twice, and better if it's three times at different parts of the cycle.

Oh, and something you asked on that post, I don't know if I ever said anything in your thread about it, but your DHEAs was fine. DHEAs is a primarily male hormone anyways, as you can see by the reference numbers and the fact that even the low point in the male range is much higher. As long as you aren't UNDER the minimum for females, you're okay. Supplementing DHEAs is always a chancy business as well, there's a very strong likelihood of just unbalancing yourself worse.

I knoww for some reason they said they'd only test those if I was trying to get pregnant-- maybe if I actually PAY for it instead of getting it issued from a doctor then I can get E & P. IDK why they just couldn't include it :/

Thank you I was worried about that. it says the range for 18-30y/o women is 59-432, mine was 229. I guess it could always be lower, though. I was actually interested in my SHBG at the time, bc it was high. I was looking up that high SHBG might cause breast decrease, I was thinking that was my problem for a long time (with breast decrease/fluctuations)

[AbiDrew85]

I knoww for some reason they said they'd only test those if I was trying to get pregnant-- maybe if I actually PAY for it instead of getting it issued from a doctor then I can get E & P. IDK why they just couldn't include it :/

Thank you I was worried about that. it says the range for 18-30y/o women is 59-432, mine was 229. I guess it could always be lower, though. I was actually interested in my SHBG at the time, bc it was high. I was looking up that high SHBG might cause breast decrease, I was thinking that was my problem for a long time (with breast decrease/fluctuations)

Oh, I think I do remember saying something to you about SHBG at some point... And yeah, that did seem a bit high.

As for the testing, I'm not surprised... It sucks, but it doesn't surprise me. However, that's why I said what I did about independent testing. That's how I worded it, but I did mean pay for it from an independent lab, not going through your regular doctor and all the red tape rigamarole.

[missboobshirt]

I knoww for some reason they said they'd only test those if I was trying to get pregnant-- maybe if I actually PAY for it instead of getting it issued from a doctor then I can get E & P. IDK why they just couldn't include it :/

Thank you I was worried about that. it says the range for 18-30y/o women is 59-432, mine was 229. I guess it could always be lower, though. I was actually interested in my SHBG at the time, bc it was high. I was looking up that high SHBG might cause breast decrease, I was thinking that was my problem for a long time (with breast decrease/fluctuations)

Oh, I think I do remember saying something to you about SHBG at some point... And yeah, that did seem a bit high.

As for the testing, I'm not surprised... It sucks, but it doesn't surprise me. However, that's why I said what I did about independent testing. That's how I worded it, but I did mean pay for it from an independent lab, not going through your regular doctor and all the red tape rigamarole.

yeah i'll do that when I have a little extra $$
do you think SHBG could be a problem for me? would it being too high cause breast decrease? My theory was that when my E & P drop (around menses/mid cycle) then the high levels of SHBG can over ride them and that is what may cause the decrease.. because that is when I have my fluctuations, during menses and mid cycle, before ovulation.