(23-04-2016, 14:56)missboobshirt Wrote: this is really, really interesting. The only thing I have to say to that is, to my knowledge, I thought it was progesterone that caused fluid retention? that is why we get pmsy type, bloated feelings during luteal phase?
I think, again this could be due to progesterone resensitizing estrogen receptors at the outset of progesterone secretion. If someone is estrogen dominant, the estrogen receptors are downregulated due to the estrogen, so the person feels mostly normal during the rest of the cycle.
at the point in the cycle when the body starts producing progesterone again in an estrogen dominant, the receptors are resensitized and we get all the classic bloaty luteal symptoms from all the estrogen floating around in us
and because those receptors are turned back on until we start secreting estrogen again, we experience them for a while. it's like a see saw between estrogen and progesterone and their receptors.
but again, if progesterone is
increased past a certain point it begins to shut down estrogen receptors, lowering estrogen activity and reversing its nastier side effects. so progesterone can either cause fluid retention or reverse it depending on the estrogen present and the active receptors. in short, progesterone can be used to
control these! isn't that neat?
I like to think of it like the receptors govern the net activity of any hormone. if the receptors are downregulated (functioning less) there is less activity regardless of the amount of hormones. if the receptors are upregulated (functioning more) there is greater activity, provided that there are enough hormones to activate the respective receptors.
Here's a notice on
Progesterone Therapy:
Quote:Important note for women... If you have been on HRT (hormone replacement therapy) or have a naturally high level of estrogen, progesterone will make you more sensitive to the estrogen in your body. Because of this, for the first two or three months the symptoms caused by excessive estrogen may affect you. If this is the case it is advisable to increase the daily application of progesterone cream, with the advice of your health specialist, until these symptoms have gone.
on her
Estrogen dominance page:
Quote:Conversely supplemental estrogen can initially make us feel better. The reason for this is oestrogen activates the progesterone receptors so making progesterone the dominant hormone, but it wears off as estrogen becomes the dominant hormone
even though this has little to do with breast growth, it's really interesting! I actually have yet to pour through the whole site, but it's a real treasure trove. it also makes me wonder if we are even supposed to have PMS naturally.
and just to be thorough, I think some of her PCOS tips can be used for women with high androgens, if any of you high T women/with pcos happen to be reading this.
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/faq-pcos.html
but yeah missB you have a good point about figuring out not to take estrogenic herbs for yourself. estrogen shuts down progesterone receptors, like the seesaw effect . maybe, in theory, if progesterone is increased just enough to sensitize and resensitize estrogen receptors and pushes out unwanted estrogen activity, and estrogenic herbs with high agonist activity (maybe pueraria? or even straight estrogen cream) are taken at the same time or at least some time after progesterone has ceased or diminished, it could improve growth, which would be why someone likeTibetanPrincess saw some interesting results by using PC at a different point in her cycle. again, this is only in theory. it's not really clear should be done here! well not to me at the moment
maybe a proper balance of estrogen/progesterone at the right points in the cycle may help, raising progesterone a considerable amount during luteal then using a mild estrogenic herb during period and follicular, which is what most do already I think. but I have yet to see anyone with a plan using high dose progesterone as Wray recommends, just the small little amounts recommended on the bottles that are supposedly not effective. maybe raise progesterone dose even more during PC part of the cycle?
I know that generally during pregnancy the boobs can balloon up, and progesterone production constantly ramps up and increases, not as in a cycle.
so I'm reading her
prolactin page now:
Quote:In pregnant women, high levels of progesterone prevent the release of prolactin. The drop in progesterone levels during childbirth signals the release of prolactin and lactogenesis.
It's at this point the foetus can absorb prolactin from the mother, leading to both male and female babies sometimes secreting milk from their nipples. Commonly known as Witch's milk, this affect is generally short lived.
Progesterone causes an increase in dopamine by suppressing prolactin and oestrogen. It is also a mono amine oxidase inhibitor. Mono amine oxidase is an enzyme that breaks down dopamine and serotonin.
If hyperprolactemia is diagnosed or suspected, progesterone suppresses it safely in both men and women. Interestingly it appears progesterone is responsible for an increase in libido, and not testosterone. Possibly due to it's ability to increase dopamine levels, decrease prolactin levels, hence sexual arousal.
Agnus castus has been used for centuries for problems which women suffer from, PMS, mastalgia, menstrual irregularities, breast cysts, increasing lactation and more. In days gone by it was used by monks to reduce sexual desire, hence it's name 'chasteberry'.
It can also reduce prolactin levels, and help with luteal phase dysfunction, with it's subsequent problems in embryo implantation. But because it has a mild oestrogenic action, levels of 17 beta-oestradiol can increase. One study found mild ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome occurred in the luteal phase.
so then she mentions chasteberry to reduce prolactin levels and increases estrogen production. but isn't prolactin supposed to help breasts grow? maybe
raising prolactin AFTER progesterone drops can help you. so chasteberry probably wouldn't help you in this case since you are already taking PC. prolactin levels might be a key here, since prolactin INCREASES estrogen receptor response. this means estrogen-related boobie growth. low prolactin could be causing low estrogen response after PC and might explain shrinkage in your case missB, because getting enough progesterone shuts down your estrogen receptors (good for estrogen doinance) but also lowers your estrogen response.
so again, maybe increasing prolactin after progesterone lowers and you stop taking PC might help your estrogen activity pick up earlier in your cycle (during period and follicular) and prevent shrinkage. progesterone might decrease fluid retention/swelling, but is responsible for glandular development (roundness) so it's still important too. I wonder if increasing sensitivity to estrogen during follicular actually increases sensitivity to progesterone down the line? this all might be really great for growth.
I'm trying to look for ways to raise prolactin, most things I am finding seem to be geared toward reducing prolactin. the only thing I can think of is massage.
and yikes this post got longer than I thought! maybe I'll take this stuff over to its own thread to reorganize. hope it's not too much missB
but I hardly drink it at all! maybe try decafe? lol :/ I would try another drink for substitute! I have read that too, but I heard it wasn't by much. I guess it depends on how much caffeine you intake!
Thanks for all the info Abi <3 it's super appreciated.