[Dynseli]

By anecdotal evidence, Pueraria and Fenugreek are likely synergistic together.

[AbiDrew85]

Then the more pragmatic question is does it combine well with PM or not (is it synergistic, conflicting or redundant?). In theory and in practice. I'm sure on at least some tiny level it has an effect on several different hormones. But I'm too practical to care.

By anecdotal evidence, Pueraria and Fenugreek are likely synergistic together.

My own experience on that has been wholly unsatisfactory, though I cannot for sure say that the fenugreek did anything at all, hurt the progress I could have had without it and just using the other herbs I'd been using, or helped in some small way but I just wasn't blocking sufficient T. I was using it and PM as well as other things. Personally, I'd err on the side of caution and say it's unlikely to be synergistic and might be competitive. Instead of fenugreek, if you want a galactagogue, a galactagogue that should pair well with PM is shatavari, from my research that herb is still poorly understood but they have established it's effect is not through estrogenic behavior.

[Lotus]

I started my NBE program in April by taking 1tsp of ground fenugreek a day and I noticed that my boobs got fuller, especially around the first few weeks of taking it. They haven't increased in cupsize (I'm still a 34B), but they just fill up my bra more. I still continue to take it daily. I feel like my boobs haven't really changed for the past weeks though, they've just stayed as they are, so I want to add more to my program but not sure where to start.

I guess massage is always good, so I'll implement that. I cannot get a Noogleberry because of the ridiculous international shipping cost, so I'm not looking to get any devices any time soon. Buying anything online is also very expensive here, so I feel like I've got limited options. Should I try finding pueraria mirifica? Is it ok to take fenugreek and PM together? I'm just worried about my hormones not being balanced.

What do you recommend I do next?

Femina, women metabolize drugs 20-30% quicker then men. The following human study found FG dramatically increases E2 levels in month 2. The amount used in the study was only 300 mg, suggest women need massive amounts is risky. Stick with FG for a few cycles then evaluate. I wouldn't add PM at this point, (if ever). Work on diet, exercise, massage and balancing hormones during break the next few months. Add lemons (sliced) w/ filtered water 6-8 cups per day, which also inhibit androgens.

Clinical studies indicate that women metabolise drugs which are substrates of CYP3A4 more quickly than men (20–30% increase)4. Analysis has shown around two fold higher levels of CYP3A4 protein in female compared to male tissue samples3,4. http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/PUArtic...4503A4.htm

I posted this last year, take a look at the diagram in table 2, in specifically the increase in dhea, progesterone, FSH (follicle stimulating hormone-----a pure aomatase imo) testosterone and prolactin, respectively. From the study I believe the bump in libido comes from DHEA (similar to maca), however, the way FG increases E2 (dramatically in month 2) comes from its aromatase capabilities (from multiple pathways I believe), but mostly from FSH.



Influence of a Specialized Trigonella foenum- graecum Seed Extract (Libifem), on Testosterone, Estradiol and Sexual Function in Healthy Menstruating Women, a Randomised Placebo Controlled Study
_________________________
The aim of the study was to evaluate the effect of Trigonellafoenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract on sex hormones and sexual function in healthy menstruating women who reported low sexual drive. This short term, single site, double blind, randomised, placebo-controlled study was conducted on 80 women, aged 20 to 49 years. Participants were randomised to either an oral dose of a standardised T. foenum-graecum seed extract (libifem) at a dose of 600 mg/day or placebo over two menstrual cycles. Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, progesterone, androstenedione, total and free testosterone, estradiol (E2), luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, sex hormone binding globulin and cholesterol were measured at baseline and 8 weeks. The individual aspects of sexual function were measured using the Derogatis interview for sexual functioning and female sexual function index self-administered questionnaires. Stress, fatigue and quality of the relationship with partner were also measured using the PSS (Perceived Stress Scale), MFI-20 (Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory) and DAS (Dyadic Adjustment Scale) quality of life measures, respectively. There was a significant increase in free testosterone and E2 in the active group as well as sexual desire and arousal compared with the placebo group. The results indicate that this extract of T. foenum-graecum may be a useful treatment for increasing sexual arousal and desire in women. Copyright © 2015 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Luis_Vitetta/publication/275354668_Influence_of_a_Specialized_Trigonella_foenum_graecum_Seed_Extract_%28Libifem%29_on_Testosterone_Estradiol_and_Sexual_Function_in_Healthy_Menstruating_Women_a_Randomised_Placebo_Controlled_Study/links/553ae3960cf2c415bb08fe6d.pdf?ev=pub_ext_doc_dl&origin=publication_list&inViewer=true

.
Administration of T. foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels. Estradiol stimulates vaginal lubrication and blood flow, affecting a woman’s capacity for sexual arousal and orgasm (Simon, 2011); this supports the significant positive change in sexual arousal observed. Whilst the mechanism of the increase in E2 levels is unclear from the current study, one possibility is due to increased aromatase activity that converts testosterone to E2.

[EllaC]

I started my NBE program in April by taking 1tsp of ground fenugreek a day and I noticed that my boobs got fuller, especially around the first few weeks of taking it. They haven't increased in cupsize (I'm still a 34B), but they just fill up my bra more. I still continue to take it daily. I feel like my boobs haven't really changed for the past weeks though, they've just stayed as they are, so I want to add more to my program but not sure where to start.

I guess massage is always good, so I'll implement that. I cannot get a Noogleberry because of the ridiculous international shipping cost, so I'm not looking to get any devices any time soon. Buying anything online is also very expensive here, so I feel like I've got limited options. Should I try finding pueraria mirifica? Is it ok to take fenugreek and PM together? I'm just worried about my hormones not being balanced.

What do you recommend I do next?

First off how old are you?
That should be an influencing factor in even considering PM...
But yes PM can mess you up, chances are you dont need it.
Im reading alot about the effects of herbs in general. Your body doesnt need them and if you introduce them, its for them to do SOMETHING IN your body. Be it good or bad, but youre putting them in there for a purpose and it might not do what you want it to do.

For fenugreek, i asked my naturopath did she think it raises estrogen, her response "Im not sure", and others "No" but then she said " I can tell you alot of men come in buying fenugreek to grow boobs" - so i reckon it does influcence hormones in a way that can potentially cause boob growth and/or weight gain in general. But i wouldnt even pretend or try to get into the hows and whys. You guys can argue that one out

If shes (femina) going to take fenugreek wouldnt taking it in a food source not exceeding say how the average indian consumes in their dishes? Ie a little fenugreek seeds or sprouts, a few fennel seeds there be a little help? I disagree with taking the pills unless you have a good reason, and taking them for therapeutic reasons. And take PM off the table altogether.

Sorry Femina i think adding the massage etc as you mentioned earlier is great, but trust me once you start down the path of adding herbs to raise estrogen its a dark path that can lead you into trouble, i say this from experience.

We have threads on things you can try PRE jumping into herbs. They are aplenty here on BN

[Dynseli]

The last time I researched species of Pueraria, which was over last year, it's properties couldn't definitely be pinned down. The closest paper said it seemed to have estrogenic, and progestogenic properties, but that paper wasn't too sure. Because of the lack of research, I can only figure what it possibly does through anecdotal evidence. By what it does on cycles, it causes heavy and erratic periods. There was another effect it had, that was consistent with a progestogenic or prolactin property on periods, but I forgot the specific. Causing heavy periods, suggests that it either raises a combination of LH, FSH, Estrogen, Androgens. There was a counter but weaker effect of Pueraria that was consistent with Progesterone or Prolactin.

There has been a lot of attention for pueraria at BreastNexus. Possibly, because that it has a reputation for somewhat having efficacy. This could be attributed to it having combined properties that work in synergy, but still the evidence that even this is overly imbalanced, as seen with the symptoms it causes.

Pueraria is written about a lot in scientific papers that it has questionable safety and mixed results with regards to tumors and cancer. It's possibly because it causes an overbalance in a specific hormone (likely Estrogen or Estrogen related), but I won't go against the qualms the research papers pointed out. It is not for certain why it has mixed results with regards to tumors/cancer, whether it has a phytochemical that is a carcinogen or if it's simply because of imbalance.

[Peirong]

I started my NBE program in April by taking 1tsp of ground fenugreek a day and I noticed that my boobs got fuller, especially around the first few weeks of taking it. They haven't increased in cupsize (I'm still a 34B), but they just fill up my bra more. I still continue to take it daily. I feel like my boobs haven't really changed for the past weeks though, they've just stayed as they are, so I want to add more to my program but not sure where to start.

I guess massage is always good, so I'll implement that. I cannot get a Noogleberry because of the ridiculous international shipping cost, so I'm not looking to get any devices any time soon. Buying anything online is also very expensive here, so I feel like I've got limited options. Should I try finding pueraria mirifica? Is it ok to take fenugreek and PM together? I'm just worried about my hormones not being balanced.

What do you recommend I do next?

First off how old are you?
That should be an influencing factor in even considering PM...
But yes PM can mess you up, chances are you dont need it.
Im reading alot about the effects of herbs in general. Your body doesnt need them and if you introduce them, its for them to do SOMETHING IN your body. Be it good or bad, but youre putting them in there for a purpose and it might not do what you want it to do.

For fenugreek, i asked my naturopath did she think it raises estrogen, her response "Im not sure", and others "No" but then she said " I can tell you alot of men come in buying fenugreek to grow boobs" - so i reckon it does influcence hormones in a way that can potentially cause boob growth and/or weight gain in general. But i wouldnt even pretend or try to get into the hows and whys. You guys can argue that one out

If shes (femina) going to take fenugreek wouldnt taking it in a food source not exceeding say how the average indian consumes in their dishes? Ie a little fenugreek seeds or sprouts, a few fennel seeds there be a little help? I disagree with taking the pills unless you have a good reason, and taking them for therapeutic reasons. And take PM off the table altogether.

Sorry Femina i think adding the massage etc as you mentioned earlier is great, but trust me once you start down the path of adding herbs to raise estrogen its a dark path that can lead you into trouble, i say this from experience.

We have threads on things you can try PRE jumping into herbs. They are aplenty here on BN

Yes, exactly! I agree with avoiding pills as much as possible. I mentioned in my introduction post that I prefer natural methods to taking supplements. That is why I actually buy my own fenugreek seeds and grind them myself every morning, putting them into my daily breakfast smoothie along with other good things like berries, spirulina, cinnamon and chia seeds for my overall health. I feel like health and nutrition is key, especially for healthy breasts and a happy body. I'm pretty young, only 18. That being said, even though I'm keen to get DD's, I'm not rushing this program because I don't want to end up harming myself, so I'm kind of just finding my way through it and seeing what works for me. All I need now are suggestions for the next step given my progress so far. Thank you for your input, I'll be reading through the other threads and doing research to see what possibilities there are for me.

[EllaC]

I started my NBE program in April by taking 1tsp of ground fenugreek a day and I noticed that my boobs got fuller, especially around the first few weeks of taking it. They haven't increased in cupsize (I'm still a 34B), but they just fill up my bra more. I still continue to take it daily. I feel like my boobs haven't really changed for the past weeks though, they've just stayed as they are, so I want to add more to my program but not sure where to start.

I guess massage is always good, so I'll implement that. I cannot get a Noogleberry because of the ridiculous international shipping cost, so I'm not looking to get any devices any time soon. Buying anything online is also very expensive here, so I feel like I've got limited options. Should I try finding pueraria mirifica? Is it ok to take fenugreek and PM together? I'm just worried about my hormones not being balanced.

What do you recommend I do next?

First off how old are you?
That should be an influencing factor in even considering PM...
But yes PM can mess you up, chances are you dont need it.
Im reading alot about the effects of herbs in general. Your body doesnt need them and if you introduce them, its for them to do SOMETHING IN your body. Be it good or bad, but youre putting them in there for a purpose and it might not do what you want it to do.

For fenugreek, i asked my naturopath did she think it raises estrogen, her response "Im not sure", and others "No" but then she said " I can tell you alot of men come in buying fenugreek to grow boobs" - so i reckon it does influcence hormones in a way that can potentially cause boob growth and/or weight gain in general. But i wouldnt even pretend or try to get into the hows and whys. You guys can argue that one out

If shes (femina) going to take fenugreek wouldnt taking it in a food source not exceeding say how the average indian consumes in their dishes? Ie a little fenugreek seeds or sprouts, a few fennel seeds there be a little help? I disagree with taking the pills unless you have a good reason, and taking them for therapeutic reasons. And take PM off the table altogether.

Sorry Femina i think adding the massage etc as you mentioned earlier is great, but trust me once you start down the path of adding herbs to raise estrogen its a dark path that can lead you into trouble, i say this from experience.

We have threads on things you can try PRE jumping into herbs. They are aplenty here on BN

Yes, exactly! I agree with avoiding pills as much as possible. I mentioned in my introduction post that I prefer natural methods to taking supplements. That is why I actually buy my own fenugreek seeds and grind them myself every morning, putting them into my daily breakfast smoothie along with other good things like berries, spirulina, cinnamon and chia seeds for my overall health. I feel like health and nutrition is key, especially for healthy breasts and a happy body. I'm pretty young, only 18. That being said, even though I'm keen to get DD's, I'm not rushing this program because I don't want to end up harming myself, so I'm kind of just finding my way through it and seeing what works for me. All I need now are suggestions for the next step given my progress so far. Thank you for your input, I'll be reading through the other threads and doing research to see what possibilities there are for me.

Well your very wise!
Take a look at katanas massage page that should help. Your age, diet , massage growth hormones you should do super. And good call keep away from any and all pills. Maybe just spice up your meals like your doing, don't go overkill. Youl do great

[EllaC]

FYI I'm gonna do that myself, I grew intolerant to pills so a little fenugreek sprinkled on food as with fennel etc settle tummy and maybe little boob boost

[Peirong]

Femina, women metabolize drugs 20-30% quicker then men. The following human study found FG dramatically increases E2 levels in month 2. The amount used in the study was only 300 mg, suggest women need massive amounts is risky. Stick with FG for a few cycles then evaluate. I wouldn't add PM at this point, (if ever). Work on diet, exercise, massage and balancing hormones during break the next few months. Add lemons (sliced) w/ filtered water 6-8 cups per day, which also inhibit androgens.

Thank you for the knowledge and advice! I think I will continue to take fenugreek as I do now along with other non-herbal methods as is recommended, keeping it limited and at a safe intake. Ella Craig gave some very useful advice and suggestions about how it could be used. Surferjoe mentioned that 1-2tbsp was used in the 'most successful programmes', but judging on my age (I'm 18) and what I've read about overdose, isn't that too much? Also, how much would 300mg of fenugreek be in terms of tsp/tbsp? I don't take fenugreek in supplement form. Surely 1tsp is alright? I'm not sure about more seeds = more growth, sounds risky to me as your evidence suggests.

By the way, if it's not too much of a hassle, could you please refer me to a post about cycling? Or just - if you have the time - explain its significance and how to do it? I don't understand what it means and where to find information about it, but I've seen it mentioned a few times on BN already. I'm very bad at using this site, hehe.

[surferjoe2007]

Femina, women metabolize drugs 20-30% quicker then men. The following human study found FG dramatically increases E2 levels in month 2. The amount used in the study was only 300 mg, suggest women need massive amounts is risky. Stick with FG for a few cycles then evaluate. I wouldn't add PM at this point, (if ever). Work on diet, exercise, massage and balancing hormones during break the next few months. Add lemons (sliced) w/ filtered water 6-8 cups per day, which also inhibit androgens.

Thank you for the knowledge and advice! I think I will continue to take fenugreek as I do now along with other non-herbal methods as is recommended, keeping it limited and at a safe intake. Ella Craig gave some very useful advice and suggestions about how it could be used. Surferjoe mentioned that 1-2tbsp was used in the 'most successful programmes', but judging on my age (I'm 18) and what I've read about overdose, isn't that too much? Also, how much would 300mg of fenugreek be in terms of tsp/tbsp? I don't take fenugreek in supplement form. Surely 1tsp is alright? I'm not sure about more seeds = more growth, sounds risky to me as your evidence suggests.

By the way, if it's not too much of a hassle, could you please refer me to a post about cycling? Or just - if you have the time - explain its significance and how to do it? I don't understand what it means and where to find information about it, but I've seen it mentioned a few times on BN already. I'm very bad at using this site, hehe.

At age 18 I'm not certain what a good amount is. Native Americans have given goat's rue, a similar herb, to male children to make them bigger and stronger. But I haven't found much information for female children. I have heard of fenugreek for children in general to increase apetite, but I don't know the amount. Plus you're not a child; puberty is mostly over for you at 18. But it's not quite over. I mean a little should be safe at worst. If you really want to be safe and sure you could stay away from herbs until about 22-23 when puberty is totally done. I just know that for fenugreek the dose is way different from other herbs. Studies use 6,000-25,000 mg and I think I saw one diabetes study with around 50,000 mg. Whereas with PM for example studies tend to use 20-200 mg, and most people don't use more than 500-1000 mg. For fenugreek those doses have no effect at all. You can find plenty of information about cycling in the pueraria mirifica forum section. There is about 8,000 mg in a tablespoon. Those fenugreek studies use strong extracts, about 10 times stronger than the whole herb. And pure diosgenin is far about 100 times stronger, though it is missing the other saponins found in fenugreek. I couldn't find the 300 mg study Lotus was referring to in the links btw.

Here are some non-herbal methods:
1. Massage with an oil high in essential fatty acids or saturated such as flax oil or coconut oil. Or both. Eat lots of foods high in essential fatty acids such as seafood.
2. Pectoral muscle exercises. Won't make boobs grow but it makes the muscles underneath larger.
3. Make broth from chicken's feet. It is loaded with collagen which is an important breast material. You can also take 3,000 mg MSM to help your body makes its own collagen, which is simpler but doesn't contain other components of collagen such as hyaluronic acid. Also great for elasticity/firmness.
4. Eat lots of B vitamin rich foods such as whole grains, nuts, beans or bran. Take a multi-B isn't the same, because it is completely missing hundreds of molecules found in food. These vitamins are required for growth, development and hormones in general, like calcium and vitamin D is to bones.
But out of these only massage actually makes boobs grow. 3 & 4 merely allow it if they were the bottleneck holding you back.