[bettie32]

After reading many posts on breastnexus and doing research, I understand that it's best to have balanced hormones (equal levels of testosterone, estrogen, progesterone...) but I've read several of you mention that having a bit more estrogen would stimulate breast growth. This is why many of us on here take herbs with phytoestrogens etc. I'm not 100% sure if there's an exact formula though because I know many ladies who have perfectly balanced hormones who are not busty and I know some ladies who have a bit more testosterone and they're actually very well endowed! 

Too much estrogen obviously could have the opposite effect and sabotage breast enlargement if I understood correctly. So how can one get the "right" amount of estrogen (not too much much, not too little)?

Another question: I've seen many ladies take phytoestrogens to increase their estrogen but then they also take something to balance/lower the estrogen levels (such as shatavari) and I don't understand the logic. Wouldn't this be counteractive? Please enlighten me!

[solome]

hi bettie. that’s a good question. i’ve wondered that, too. my doctor has run panels on me and i’m pretty healthy and hormone levels have never seemed to be problematic but,  …….i’ve always thought the use of the word balance was confusing because if you look at a monthly graph of estrogen, progesterone, LH, FSH ..well, those mostly  ..throughout the month they go up and down and the balance of one relative to another on any given day will be different  ….sooo, are there 30 different relative balances for 30 days of the month ..or i also wonder what happens to my own estrogen if i’m consuming a lot of good, wholesome, fresh and delicious phytoestrogens. does my more powerful estradiol keep circling the chairs trying to get an empty chair until it’s sent back through my very attractive liver to get metabolised or….  i think maybe, the real problem interfering with the body's own intelligent homeostases when we introduce strong herbs or drugs or synthetic steroids or whatever and the body has to work a bit overtime to try to bring everything back to its hormonal comfort zone  ...and in the meantime, something else kinda cascades and you get a little bump or dizzy or circadian warp ...i don't really know, bettie

[EllaC]

Key thing is liver . Liver filters out the excess estrogens. While my liver panels hVe been good I exhibit congested liver symptoms them I hear conventional lab ranges are wrong and leave not life threatening imbalances as normal..  
But yeh solome great point... do the phytos take place over strong estrogens.  Who bother heck knows :s 

For me given we all touch xeno estrogens daily it makes sense to try overpower them with good estrogen but scare mongering has us doing otherwise.  I think life us one big conspiracy now I really do.

[Pink.Chiffon]

For me given we all touch xeno estrogens daily it makes sense to try overpower them with good estrogen but scare mongering has us doing otherwise.  I think life us one big conspiracy now I really do.

Lol the more I read about what is all going wrong for our health in the 21st century (chemical toxins, pesticides, etc), the more I have reached the same conclusion. I have been following the news and doing tons of research on what is going on with food and environmental toxins for ten years now. What is most alarming is the fact that there is a problem is not being acknowledged by the people who are responsible for doing something about it. But I digress.

Yes, liver support is so important. Without it, the hormones build up in your system and all your levels go crazy high. This is what happened to me when I first started bioidentical hormone therapy. I was put on progesterone because my estrogen levels are high and my testosterone was in the high normal range. After the first four months when I had my followup bloodwork done, my progesterone was normal, but my estrogen levels were extremely high and my testosterone was suddenly high too. My doctor put me on a supplement containing DIM and indole-3-carbinol (this is why I take EstroSense). The day after I started taking it I immediately felt the best I have ever felt. So While other people are probably not in the same situation, taking a liver detox supplement certainly cannot hurt.

I also want to address the issue of "hormone balance". Hormone balance does not necessarily mean all levels are the same nor or are they at the same levels at all times or at the same levels at the same time for each individual. But there is probably a ratio of estrogen to progesterone during different parts of one's cycle, which may vary during the cycle, but expected values are pretty well established. My bloodwork is done just once without looking at how the levels are changing during my cycle. So doctors know expected values enough to say what is normal relative to where you are in your cycle.

Does this clear some things up a bit I hope?

[Pink.Chiffon]

I just wanted to add (because I was thinking about the post a lot) that the hormone system in the body is very complex. As my example illustrated, you cannot change one hormone without affecting other hormones. This is why I really stress the importance of bloodwork, because that is really the only way to know. That being said, you can order bloodwork online through independent labs without a doctor. The results they send you will have the normal ranges listed for everything they test. You could do this and only see a doctor or hormone specialist if something is off. There are also lots of non hormone methods for NBE, which I feel like may actually be safer, mostly because the environment we live in is nonconducive to hormone balance from the start.

[bettie32]

Thank you ladies for your reply <3

Solome, you're right. Our hormones fluctuate throughout the month (might explain why some of us have mood swings...). There is most likely a reason for all of this, it's part of our natural cycle so I wonder if it's ok to overwhelm our bodies with extra hormones (whether synthetic or natural) especially when we don't really need them. These are things to really reflect upon.

Yes, Ella, that's very true. I also read that the liver balances hormones, which is why I'm drinking dandelion tea once in a while to detox the liver. Gosh, sounds like xenoestrogens are all around us! And I also want to know, what are the "good" estrogens that we can take. Are there really any??

Pink Chiffon, yes your explanation is very clear. I think I expressed myself incorrectly, it's not like we need to have the exact same level of testosterone, estrogen, progesterone. Like you said, it depends on several factors. Extremely high levels of one particular hormone isn't good of course but that's another story. I guess blood tests are the only way to know if we're on the right track... 

I recently heard about DIM thanks to Ella! Did you notice any increase in breast size, Pink Chiffon? I'm also more interested in non-hormonal methods for NBE but I don't know if they are as effective? Pardon my ignorance but if you had very high estrogen levels and equally high testosterone, wouldn't that be ok? I thought the issue is when one hormone is much higher/lower than the others.....how confusing!

[EllaC]

For me given we all touch xeno estrogens daily it makes sense to try overpower them with good estrogen but scare mongering has us doing otherwise.  I think life us one big conspiracy now I really do.

Lol the more I read about what is all going wrong for our health in the 21st century (chemical toxins, pesticides, etc), the more I have reached the same conclusion. I have been following the news and doing tons of research on what is going on with food and environmental toxins for ten years now. What is most alarming is the fact that there is a problem is not being acknowledged by the people who are responsible for doing something about it. But I digress.

Yes, liver support is so important. Without it, the hormones build up in your system and all your levels go crazy high. This is what happened to me when I first started bioidentical hormone therapy. I was put on progesterone because my estrogen levels are high and my testosterone was in the high normal range. After the first four months when I had my followup bloodwork done, my progesterone was normal, but my estrogen levels were extremely high and my testosterone was suddenly high too. My doctor put me on a supplement containing DIM and indole-3-carbinol (this is why I take EstroSense). The day after I started taking it I immediately felt the best I have ever felt. So While other people are probably not in the same situation, taking a liver detox supplement certainly cannot hurt.

I also want to address the issue of "hormone balance". Hormone balance does not necessarily mean all levels are the same nor or are they at the same levels at all times or at the same levels at the same time for each individual. But there is probably a ratio of estrogen to progesterone during different parts of one's cycle, which may vary during the cycle, but expected values are pretty well established. My bloodwork is done just once without looking at how the levels are changing during my cycle. So doctors know expected values enough to say what is normal relative to where you are in your cycle.

Does this clear some things up a bit I hope?

I missed this post.. Ok so you took PC cream only to normalise progesteron but have estrogen  go higher! wow that minds blowing. That goes to show progesterone has no influence on actual estrogen levels ( i theorize). I wonder what was happening in your life to have youre estrogen go higher again? 

Ok im going to look into estrosence.

How has taking this influenced breasts if any? Ps i realise breasts are insignificant to reducing estrogen!

[EllaC]

So i wonder if there is an adaptogen that "balances it all" as in not just E & P but all the other sex hormones too. Or is it more a lifestyle and influence factor.. I have MTHFR so have to keep my liver doing its thing so i take  a daily liver tonic plus lemon water and epsom salt baths and lymphatic stimulation when i remember. I wonder if chasteberry tea sporadically would have that adaptogenic effect .. I want to balance at any cost. But i cant commit to daily suppelmentation cause i just dont have the disclipline!

[bettie32]

So i wonder if there is an adaptogen that "balances it all" as in not just E & P but all the other sex hormones too. Or is it more a lifestyle and influence factor.. I have MTHFR so have to keep my liver doing its thing so i take  a daily liver tonic plus lemon water and epsom salt baths and lymphatic stimulation when i remember. I wonder if chasteberry tea sporadically would have that adaptogenic effect .. I want to balance at any cost. But i cant commit to daily suppelmentation cause i just dont have the disclipline!

Ella, just discovered red raspberry (leaves)! They balance hormones. They calm the nerves and are good for the digestive tract too apparently. Can't find any side effects so far......we could perhaps take it in tea form. Oh and since you also like Amazon reviews : https://www.amazon.com/Traditional-Medicinals-Organic-Raspberry-Leaf/dp/B0009F3PP8/ref=sr_1_7_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1490189445&sr=8-7&keywords=red%2Braspberry%2Bleaf&th=1

I think chasteberry sporadically would be good for you.

I'm looking for the "perfect" adaptogen too so that we don't have to take 5 different herbs at once...

[Pink.Chiffon]

Pink Chiffon, yes your explanation is very clear. I think I expressed myself incorrectly, it's not like we need to have the exact same level of testosterone, estrogen, progesterone. Like you said, it depends on several factors. Extremely high levels of one particular hormone isn't good of course but that's another story. I guess blood tests are the only way to know if we're on the right track... 

I recently heard about DIM thanks to Ella! Did you notice any increase in breast size, Pink Chiffon? I'm also more interested in non-hormonal methods for NBE but I don't know if they are as effective? Pardon my ignorance but if you had very high estrogen levels and equally high testosterone, wouldn't that be ok? I thought the issue is when one hormone is much higher/lower than the others.....how confusing!

Unfortunately, blood tests are the only way to know, but the good news is that blood tests have never been easier to do or more accessible. I don't know how much it would cost to have hormone levels checked, but it might be worth looking into, as optimizing hormone levels will help your overall health as well.

I haven't been taking DIM for very long and started BO at around the same time, so it is hard to say what is working. I know the DIM supplement made me feel so much healthier and clear-headed, and since I started using the BO and DIM supplement (EstroSense) I have had almost nonstop breast aches, which I wasn't having before. This leads me to believe that it is working, but I couldn't say which one is responsible.

There are some great non-hormone options out there but different things work for different people. BO I think is consideres non-hormone, but it requires hormone balance to work and work well. There are also several non-hormone creams like IsoSensual, which stimulates fat cell growth in the breast and helps fat cells get fatter. I think maybe the best non-hormone NBE method is breast pumps. I just bought a Bosom Beauty breast pump system, which I am waiting to receive in the mail sometime this week.

In terms of hormones, bloodwork measures the concentration. There is a healthy range for any hormone in the blood, so you don't want more than x number of hormone molecules in x amount of blood. These hormones don't cancel each other out or interact directly with each other, so levels that are too high, even if it were all hormones, would be bad for the body because it would cause overstimulation of any body system affected by those hormones. Does that clear things up a little?