[wagon train]

Thank you both so much for all this info! So I learn best from repeating so I'm going to do a lot of this, apologies in advance for long messages.

The consensus from the information is that because of high levels during our luteal phase, it is better to not take the potentially hormone inducing herbs and create an excess of hormones? 

A lot of this may be wrong but It helps me to literate what I believe to be true so you can tell me where I might be off:
From what I’ve been able to gather these factors are important in an NBE herbal routine a phyoestrogen, a progestertone, a prolactin, a pro-hormone, a pro-aromatase, a potentiator, an anti-androgen, and an adaptogen. So currently this is a break down of what I’m taking and which category each herb falls into.

Phytoestrogenic herb (Fengreek, Hops, Fennel, Rice Bran)
Progesterone herb (Wild Yam, Saw Palmetto (works on receptors),
Prolactin (Wild Yam, Fenugreek
Pro-hormone (Wild Yam, Fish Oil)
Pro-aromatase (Lavender)
Potentiator  (Legion Multivatin, Sena, Kelp)
Anti-androgen (Wild Yam, Saw Palmetto)
Adaptogen (Maca, Red Raspberry, Chaste Berry)

One thing I haven’t been able to figure out is if drinking Mint to to help raise FSH/LH is needed. In my current program I have myself drinking a mint tea during both my Moons and my menstrual time. This is simply because another program said that’s what to do, so I am unsure of the validity as other places I’ve read that Mint is an anti-androgen.  

SOOO, If all of this is correct then comes the question of WHEN should these herbs be used. And this is my best guess thus far:

New Moon (New Cycle Start) :: Day 1
Pro-aromatase (Lavender)
Potentiator  (Legion Multivatin, Sena, Kelp, Fish Oil)
Adaptogen (Maca, Red Raspberry, Chaste Berry)


Menstrual Period & Follicular Phase (Period Start-Ovulation) :: Day 2-15
Phytoestrogenic herb (Fengreek, Hops, Fennel, Rice Bran)
Progesterone herb (Wild Yam, Saw Palmetto (works on receptors))
Prolactin (Wild Yam, Fenugreek)
Pro-hormone (Wild Yam, Fish Oil)
Pro-aromatase (Lavender)
Potentiator  (Legion Multivatin, Sena, Kelp)
Anti-androgen (Wild Yam, Saw Palmetto)
Adaptogen (Maca, Red Raspberry, Chaste Berry)


Full Moon (Ovulation Day) :: Day 16
Pro-aromatase (Lavender)
Potentiator  (Legion Multivitamin, Sena, Kelp, Fish Oil)
Adaptogen (Maca, Red Raspberry, Chaste Berry)


Luteal Phase (Ovulation - Period Start) :: Day 17-30
Potentiator  (Legion Multivitamin, Sena, Kelp, Fish Oil)
Adaptogen (Maca, Red Raspberry, Chaste Berry)


And yes lotus please continue to post here with information you find! I'm still a little lost with the temperature chart and how that plays into cycling, tho.

[---]

I've stumbled on some threads that really elucidate more on this cycling mystery. I recommend checking them out and be sure to read as many comments as you can because they have so much good information (especially pay attention to the comments Lotus made on the threads!). Some things I've found out is that cycling helps to address estrogen dominance and to spare the liver from toxicity and it also helps to prevent stalling while on herbs. I would have quoted everything, but I haven't figured out how to do that, lol.

Threads to check out:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=23662&highlight=cycling
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=22138


I'm just starting to realize how crucial it is to have a well-rounded herbal program that includes cycling. It's often not just one component that equals a successful NBE journey, and most of the women on here who have had the best success has done so by taking a combination of herbs and also by cycling. Balance is key! But remember that looks differently for everyone, so you got to find out what works for you!

Question for Lotus: In theory, women shouldn't have to work as hard as men who are transitioning to grow our breasts because they really are working against the currents (they have high T and low E among other things). So cycling/herbal plans should look different for men and women on here. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be similarities, either, but I hope you kind of get the gist of what I mean. Would you say that you agree, and do you think you could give your thoughts about this, Lotus? Because I do see that some women's cycling plans seem to be better suited for men who are transitioning, and at best it's just wasting efforts with unnecessary or excessive steps, but at worse it can be harmful to our bodies and cause issues. And since you know things from both sides of the coin (with all your research and with your own personal experience) maybe you can help to clear this up. 


Xoxo

[---]

I'm doing some reformulating/rearranging of my plan and I'm a little lost. Need help please!

Question: How to know which herbs to take during luteal and which herbs to take during follicular? 

I have the idea that "strong" herbs are taken during follicular (correct me if I'm wrong) but it's hard to figure out which are strong and which are considered weak. And I'm reading a lot of mixed opinions. For instance, I plan on adding EPO to my list of herbs, but not sure where it fits (luteal or follicular), but that's just one of many herbs that I'm just not sure where to place on my cycling plan. Can anyone please shed some light on this my way???? 


Xoxo

[Lotus]

And yes lotus please continue to post here with information you find! I'm still a little lost with the temperature chart and how that plays into cycling, tho.

Hi Arwen,

The body temp is a critical factor in how well we metabolise drugs, and yet we don't take full advantage of the proper set point to benefit drug potency capabilities. For instance, the poor functioning thyroid is tied directly to lower body temp....I've talked about thermogenesis in previous posts, and my understanding (or analysis) of how to use this for NBE goes beyond a sluggish thyroid explanation. I've attached a few articles to better explain BBT, read dr. Mercola's link, see the connection of how soy destroys thyroids, more so if it's already compromised. 


The effects of drugs on thermoregulation.
Cuddy ML.
Abstract
Body temperature is a balance of the hypothalamic set point, neurotransmitter action, generation of body heat, and dissipation of heat. Drugs affect body temperature by different mechanisms. Antipyretics lower body temperature when the body's thermoregulatory set point has been raised by endogenous or exogenous pyrogens. The use of antipyretics may be unnecessary or may interfere with the body's resistance to infection, mask an important sign of illness, or cause adverse drug effects. Drugs may cause increased body temperature in five ways: altered thermoregulatory mechanisms, drug administration-related fever, fever from the pharmacologic action of the drug, idiosyncratic reactions, and hypersensitivity reactions. Certain drugs cause hypothermia by depression of the thermoregulatory set point or prevention of heat conservation. By affecting the balance of thermoregulatory neurotransmitters, drugs may prevent the signs and symptoms of hot flashes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15461041


Body Temperature and Thyroid Problems
When your thyroid hormone is working properly inside cells you will make 65 percent energy and 35 percent heat as you burn calories for fuel. Thyroid hormone governs your basal metabolic rate, orchestrating the idling speed at which all cells make energy and thus heat. A classic symptom of poor thyroid function is being too cold. Conversely, a classic symptom of hyperthyroidism is being too hot (making too much heat). However, many people with low thyroid are too hot—a seeming paradox that I will explain shortly.
http://www.wellnessresources.com/weight_..._problems/

Many Symptoms Suggest Sluggish Thyroid -- Do You Have Any of These?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...yroid.aspx

[Lotus]

I've stumbled on some threads that really elucidate more on this cycling mystery. I recommend checking them out and be sure to read as many comments as you can because they have so much good information (especially pay attention to the comments Lotus made on the threads!). Some things I've found out is that cycling helps to address estrogen dominance and to spare the liver from toxicity and it also helps to prevent stalling while on herbs. I would have quoted everything, but I haven't figured out how to do that, lol.

Threads to check out:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=23662&highlight=cycling
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=22138


I'm just starting to realize how crucial it is to have a well-rounded herbal program that includes cycling. It's often not just one component that equals a successful NBE journey, and most of the women on here who have had the best success has done so by taking a combination of herbs and also by cycling. Balance is key! But remember that looks differently for everyone, so you got to find out what works for you!

Question for Lotus: In theory, women shouldn't have to work as hard as men who are transitioning to grow our breasts because they really are working against the currents (they have high T and low E among other things). So cycling/herbal plans should look different for men and women on here. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be similarities, either, but I hope you kind of get the gist of what I mean. Would you say that you agree, and do you think you could give your thoughts about this, Lotus? Because I do see that some women's cycling plans seem to be better suited for men who are transitioning, and at best it's just wasting efforts with unnecessary or excessive steps, but at worse it can be harmful to our bodies and cause issues. And since you know things from both sides of the coin (with all your research and with your own personal experience) maybe you can help to clear this up. 


Xoxo

Hi Zara,

Exactly, women shouldn't have to work harder to get their desired results (for NBE) in theory, if all goes well you'd get 2-3 cups inside 6 months...so how come it doesn't work that way?. A sobering static showed a proportion of transitioning mtf's will get breast augmentation at some point in their future. I can understand the reasoning why women and mtf's end up going that way....the natrual breast maintenance alone is maddening though...but breast augmentation maintenance is certainly a major detractor in ones final decision making process right?. I have hashimotos so NBE and hrt is no walk in the park for me, (its a distinct disadvantage tbh)....despite hashimotos my determination was (is) undaunted, and that's no less with serious NBE'ers out there quite honestly. For me I see things (the science) untarnished from limitations what science says can't be done, keep hunting for same and you'll soon see no limitations ....and in this case reset the " set points " (thermoregulatory process) for optimal performance.

Hugs, L. 

[wagon train]

And yes lotus please continue to post here with information you find! I'm still a little lost with the temperature chart and how that plays into cycling, tho.

Hi Arwen,

The body temp is a critical factor in how well we metabolise drugs, and yet we don't take full advantage of the proper set point to benefit drug potency capabilities. For instance, the poor functioning thyroid is tied directly to lower body temp....I've talked about thermogenesis in previous posts, and my understanding (or analysis) of how to use this for NBE goes beyond a sluggish thyroid explanation. I've attached a few articles to better explain BBT, read dr. Mercola's link, see the connection of how soy destroys thyroids, more so if it's already compromised. 


The effects of drugs on thermoregulation.
Cuddy ML.
Abstract
Body temperature is a balance of the hypothalamic set point, neurotransmitter action, generation of body heat, and dissipation of heat. Drugs affect body temperature by different mechanisms. Antipyretics lower body temperature when the body's thermoregulatory set point has been raised by endogenous or exogenous pyrogens. The use of antipyretics may be unnecessary or may interfere with the body's resistance to infection, mask an important sign of illness, or cause adverse drug effects. Drugs may cause increased body temperature in five ways: altered thermoregulatory mechanisms, drug administration-related fever, fever from the pharmacologic action of the drug, idiosyncratic reactions, and hypersensitivity reactions. Certain drugs cause hypothermia by depression of the thermoregulatory set point or prevention of heat conservation. By affecting the balance of thermoregulatory neurotransmitters, drugs may prevent the signs and symptoms of hot flashes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15461041


Body Temperature and Thyroid Problems
When your thyroid hormone is working properly inside cells you will make 65 percent energy and 35 percent heat as you burn calories for fuel. Thyroid hormone governs your basal metabolic rate, orchestrating the idling speed at which all cells make energy and thus heat. A classic symptom of poor thyroid function is being too cold. Conversely, a classic symptom of hyperthyroidism is being too hot (making too much heat). However, many people with low thyroid are too hot—a seeming paradox that I will explain shortly.
http://www.wellnessresources.com/weight_..._problems/

Many Symptoms Suggest Sluggish Thyroid -- Do You Have Any of These?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...yroid.aspx

So if I were to fill out that temperature form I then might come to understand how my body may or may not be metabolizing the herbs I take to their full potential? That makes a lot of sense. I am also having a spit hormone panel done this month when I go for my annual pap. So hopefully once I get that information in addition to recording my temperature I might be able to understand the science behind how my body is functioning and from there create an herbal routine to best support NBE? My understanding of this is very rudimentary so I appreciate your patience with me. I am also hoping to get my annual blood work done soon.  

I have a thought in regards to getting a hormone panel done, would the herbs I'm taking then skew the accuracy of hormone panel I'd like to do? Should I stop taking the herbs? And if so should I stop taking them immediately? I don't want to just drop off of a program because when I did that when I was freaked about my period within a handful of days I'd lost what seemed to be any growth I had gained.

[---]

Okay.... Adding more to the why and when to cycle talk.

Found this link (http://mustgrowbust.com/how-take-pueraria-mirifica/) and it really helps to break down three different methods of cycling PM which is known for it's high estrogenic activity. Even though this speaks specifically about PM, it has some valuable information on the what, why, when, and how to cycle as it relates to NBE in general. 


Xoxo

[Lotus]

And yes lotus please continue to post here with information you find! I'm still a little lost with the temperature chart and how that plays into cycling, tho.

Hi Arwen,

The body temp is a critical factor in how well we metabolise drugs, and yet we don't take full advantage of the proper set point to benefit drug potency capabilities. For instance, the poor functioning thyroid is tied directly to lower body temp....I've talked about thermogenesis in previous posts, and my understanding (or analysis) of how to use this for NBE goes beyond a sluggish thyroid explanation. I've attached a few articles to better explain BBT, read dr. Mercola's link, see the connection of how soy destroys thyroids, more so if it's already compromised. 


The effects of drugs on thermoregulation.
Cuddy ML.
Abstract
Body temperature is a balance of the hypothalamic set point, neurotransmitter action, generation of body heat, and dissipation of heat. Drugs affect body temperature by different mechanisms. Antipyretics lower body temperature when the body's thermoregulatory set point has been raised by endogenous or exogenous pyrogens. The use of antipyretics may be unnecessary or may interfere with the body's resistance to infection, mask an important sign of illness, or cause adverse drug effects. Drugs may cause increased body temperature in five ways: altered thermoregulatory mechanisms, drug administration-related fever, fever from the pharmacologic action of the drug, idiosyncratic reactions, and hypersensitivity reactions. Certain drugs cause hypothermia by depression of the thermoregulatory set point or prevention of heat conservation. By affecting the balance of thermoregulatory neurotransmitters, drugs may prevent the signs and symptoms of hot flashes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15461041


Body Temperature and Thyroid Problems
When your thyroid hormone is working properly inside cells you will make 65 percent energy and 35 percent heat as you burn calories for fuel. Thyroid hormone governs your basal metabolic rate, orchestrating the idling speed at which all cells make energy and thus heat. A classic symptom of poor thyroid function is being too cold. Conversely, a classic symptom of hyperthyroidism is being too hot (making too much heat). However, many people with low thyroid are too hot—a seeming paradox that I will explain shortly.
http://www.wellnessresources.com/weight_..._problems/

Many Symptoms Suggest Sluggish Thyroid -- Do You Have Any of These?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...yroid.aspx

So if I were to fill out that temperature form I then might come to understand how my body may or may not be metabolizing the herbs I take to their full potential? That makes a lot of sense. I am also having a spit hormone panel done this month when I go for my annual pap. So hopefully once I get that information in addition to recording my temperature I might be able to understand the science behind how my body is functioning and from there create an herbal routine to best support NBE? My understanding of this is very rudimentary so I appreciate your patience with me. I am also hoping to get my annual blood work done soon.  

I have a thought in regards to getting a hormone panel done, would the herbs I'm taking then skew the accuracy of hormone panel I'd like to do? Should I stop taking the herbs? And if so should I stop taking them immediately? I don't want to just drop off of a program because when I did that when I was freaked about my period within a handful of days I'd lost what seemed to be any growth I had gained.

Focus on how cholesterol starts the entire Steroidogenesis process, from there see how peptides, insulin, temperature, the hypothalamus/pituitary, lipids, leptin, energy produced in cells, and many others regulate our metabolism. Below is further information on how to better metabolize. 

Steroidogenesis is the biological process by which steroids are generated from cholesterol and changed into other steroids.[27] The pathways of steroidogenesis differ among species. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#Steroidogenesis

The Molecular Biology, Biochemistry, and Physiology of Human Steroidogenesis and Its Disorders
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3365799/

Ribosomal (or mRNA) peptides are small (signaling) molecule in hormones and in an organism. 

A useful strategy for NBE could be to indenify what substrates will/won't work for us. We think hormone testing (yes useful) is the first line of progress, or problem areas (deficiencies). Instead, I think (finances permitting of course) a human genome test could map out (or eliminate) the drugs we can't use. Is cost analysis worth the investment compared to all the drama that comes from our lost time, money, sanity waiting for boobs to finally grow.

in the absence of such an endeavor (genome testing) this (below) is the next best thing, yes complicated, but didn't we just find out that MSM inhibits DHT and promotes aromatase by using this method below:

This is a post (smart fella, this MarDok42) from a PCOS board: 

In the last few days my pharmacist friend explained to me when you block testosterone with one herb it will only block its production from one or two gene pathways, and a lot of the pro-hormones (hormone precursors) will find another pathway to testosterone, but it does give it a little longer to possibly become an estrogen. So to have more effective herbs, block more pathways with different types of herbs. Here's what I got so far.

Below are the genes that are involved in testosterone syntheses, they are the ones that start with 'CYP'. I have begun to cross referenced them with known chemicals in herbs that are known to inhibit these genes. If you want to find a synergistic herbal combination you might want to find a few herbs with these chemicals or others in it to inhibit(block) the majority of this gene set.

This is by no means a comprehensive list because I only started this project a week ago in my free time. But I thought that there might be other science geeks out there that would like to poke around the gene websites too.  

Genes Involved in Testosterone Syntheses with corsponding inhibitors.

CYP1A2(also makes an Estrogen).....,cimetidine (inhibits)
CYP1B1(also makes an Estrogen)
CYP2B1– apigenin,Curcumin
CYP2B6– apigenin,Curcumin,Kaempferol
CYP2A3- lignans, genistein, Kaempferol
CYP2C11(Men Only)
CYP3A4 - lignans, Kaempferol, genistein, Curcumin (cimetidine, inhibits), sesame seeds and oil. Piperine
CYP3A5 - lignans, Kaempferol, genistein, Curcumin 
CYP3A9 -
CYP19A1 -


Some Herbs and the anti androgen chemicals in them. 

apigenin(chamomille)
Quercetin (chamomille)
genistein(Soy)
Curcumin(Vanalla, Turmeric)
Kaempferol(Peony, Dill)
lignans (Flax)

steroidogenic enzymes represent targets for complete suppression of systemic and intratumoral androgen levels, an objective that is supported by the clinical efficacy of the CYP17 inhibitor abiraterone.

I added a couple things to the op's notes, the following is a list I put together:

Remember, by identifying these enzymes it provides information of drug-drug interactions. What's also key is the fact that certain cancers can be identified by examining these ezymens with interactions. 


Here's a new one called CYP2C8, which metabolizes fatty acids. another CYP17's , which CYP17A modifies estrogen metabolism.


CYP2C8- lignans-Quercetin, linoleic acid
CYP17 -lignans-green tea (inhibits DHT)
CYP17A modifies estrogen metabolism

When used in quantities typical for flavoring food, black pepper is not likely to affect the disposition of most medications. However, excessive use of black pepper or intake of dietary supplements formulated with P. nigrum or P. longum extracts may produce clinically significant interactions with drugs. This may be of particular concern when CYP3A and/or ABCB1 substrates are ingested concomitantly with piperine or piperamides in excess of 10 mg.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?filters=&orig_db=PubMed&cmd=Search&term=134%2A%5Bvolume%5D%20AND%201948%5Bpage%5D%20AND%202004%5Bpdat%5D%20AND%20Lambert%20JD%5Bauth%5D

Estrogen pathway for mammary density
HSD3B1, (catalyses the biosynthesis of all classes of hormonal steroids)
HSD17B1 (estrogen activation and androgen inactivation)
CYP27B1, CYP24 metabolizes enzymes in mammary cells, Vit.D elongates breast
CYP1A1 (polypeptide protein)
CYP1A2 (estrogen link)
CYP17A1 (modifies estrogen / inhibits DHT)
CYP19A1 (aromatase) 
CYP1B1 (breaks down fats, aka-lipids) 
COMT-(catechol-O-methyltransferase)
UGT1A1-(uridine diphospho-glucuronosyltransferase -(catalyzes estrogen) 
SULT1A1, SULT1E1- (sulfotransferases)
ESR1, ESR2-(estrogen receptors alpha and beta)



CYP17 and CYP1A1-1 play a role in the pathogenesis of fibroadenoma. Meaning something like cigarette smoke can have direct role on the CYP1A1 enzyme metabolism, e.g. progression of fibroadenomas. In other words, as bad as smoking is, 2nd hand smoke can further exacerbate fibroadenomas.