[Lotus]

Oh no I definitely don't want something that lowers progesterone. I guess I will have to re think my desire to try FG :/ Maybe some time in the future I will come around again and ask you about FSO or Hops Oil :p Thanks so much for all this info Lotus <3 you're the best.

I have progesterone lowered @ 3% over the two month trail, (not much). FG in the first half of the cycle, I do like what Vitex does, and, in the second half of the cycle its worth a look.

Lol, sorry I missed the FSO and HOPS.

FSO is good for the omega 3's, I wouldn't use it seeing it inhibits aromatase. Hops is a pro-ERa (estrogen receptor alpha) promoter. I used it before, though I didn't think it was doing anything for me. Isabelle used HOPS (fenugreek too), she has an extensive thread on them, (lots of other good info in there too).

[missboobshirt]

Oh no I definitely don't want something that lowers progesterone. I guess I will have to re think my desire to try FG :/ Maybe some time in the future I will come around again and ask you about FSO or Hops Oil :p Thanks so much for all this info Lotus <3 you're the best.

I have progesterone lowered @ 3% over the two month trail, (not much). FG in the first half of the cycle, I do like what Vitex does, and, in the second half of the cycle its worth a look.

Lol, sorry I missed the FSO and HOPS.

FSO is good for the omega 3's, I wouldn't use it seeing it inhibits aromatase. Hops is a pro-ERa (estrogen receptor alpha) promoter. I used it before, though I didn't think it was doing anything for me. Isabelle used HOPS (fenugreek too), she has an extensive thread on them, (lots of other good info in there too).

You're so smart lotus Thank you. <3 Actually I want to ask-- would you consider your NBE growth from the amount of E you upped or the amount of P you upped? I am hesitant to lower my P because when I do my E becomes dom & I lose boobage and as you know, the bleeding So I need to keep my P up to balance my elevated E

FSO sounds pretty good then because I love my omega's!

[Lotus]

You're welcome missB (and thanks too).

In the beginning I used PC 3-4times per week. PC is an excellent skin penetrator and is released into the blood stream rather quickly. I thought, well this is cool, I could build breast tissue while inhibiting DHT, then, I'd simply up my E2 & aromatase supplements to compensate the loss of E2 by PC. Isometric chest exercise (the grab n' pull) method kept them firm, which they still are (firm and heavy actually), massage is great, but you need to strengthen breast tissue by exercise (deplete) all energy from the breasts when you do, the repair peptides from tissue rebuilding does wonders..........I think of it as an overall synthesis of boobs. If you add the warm/cold therapy it takes that synthesis to a new level.

I keep growing (1/2 inch in the last 2 months) something each month, It's rare if I pump at all anymore, my take is that the isometrics keep them firm, I don't want to stretch fat cells, I want them full/round and firm.

Concerning omegas, we get way too much omega 6's (which cause inflammation), omega 3's reduced inflammation. The ratio (6's to 3's) is 10:1.........we need it at 1:4 (meaning 4x more omega 3's to omega 6's). Here's a great article attached below about the pro-inflammatory state we live in.

Omega's do benefit breast growth, adding more omega 3's (the article mentions 6 grams daily) from all sources of daily food/supplement can be fixed. Eliminate processed foods, sugars, get more fruits, veggies and lean proteins. 8-10 cups of filtered water (w/ 1 lemon wedge per cup each).

The Diet-induced Pro Inflammatory State:
A Cause of Chronic Pain and Other Degenerative Diseases?
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/ABSTRACTS...tory.shtml

[missboobshirt]

Growing that much? that is awesome! you're a pro Maybe I will try out that warm/cold therapy in the shower :p.

Thank you Lotus<3

I was thinking about what you said in this post and it made me wonder-- is Progesterone suppose to be present at all in the body when the body is not in luteal? Or is progesterone only in the body when luteal phase starts? or is it just a spike in the hormone when luteal starts?

What would happen if one were to take PC during follicular phase? or through out the cycle (esp. if they were E dom?) once my luteal phase I lose underboob and I remember you saying that is lack of progesterone hormone. It made me wonder what could possibly be happening.

Sorry L lol I was literally laying in my car last night thinking about this stuff and I was like ooo I wanna ask now I don't know! haha

[Lotus]

Fenugreek lowers progesterone and raises estradiol followed by prolactin.

Hey Lotus
I thought since FG raises estradiol, wouldn't that be taken when E rises? But you're also saying it raises P-- so I am a bit confused lol (sorry) this whole time I thought FG worked on E and should be taken during follicular?

Do you think FG extract should be cycled the same way because it would have the same effect? I have been considering Fenu extract, flaxseed and hops oils (all topical)

Hey there missB,

The science from the study indicates estradiol (in the second month) was raised by 50%(my calculations) @ 600 mg a day for two menstrual cycles. Btw, FG needs to be at least 50% steroidal saponins. (NOTE-that's not a misprint, only 600 mg was used).

steroidal saponins reported to exhibit estrogenic effects including binding to E2 receptors and inducing the expression of E2 responsive genes (Sreejaet al., 2010).

It raises prolactin yes, though not as significant as estradiol. From the study, FG lowers cholesterol, SHBG, progesterone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). It also raises LH (lutenizing hormone @ 41%)......thus the need for additional 5 AR inhibitor.

To me, FG needs to be in first half and Vitex in the second half. I'll have to adjust the supplement info about FG lowering progesterone. Alternately, I'd take FG with a conversion supplement (pro-aromatase) considering what it does to FSH, which synthesizes aromatase. I'm excited about a new aromatase approach using EPO and peanut oil, though I'm looking for an alternative for those with peanut allergies. What the 2 combination does is its binding albilty in EGF (epidermal growth factor), I'll post more info on the X thread.

Topical FG is OK (though much DHT is in skin). Use a good skin penetrator that inhibits 5 Alpaha Reductase (inhibits DHT) too.....EPO (evening prime rose oil) could work. The study size was 80 premenopausal women.  

[nanakante]

that's cause Lotus is the great guru of research

I had taken FG for a while and I found it did nothing for me, not so much as a twinge or even smelling like maple syrup so I discontinued that herb.

You need at least one teaspoon a day of ground fenugreek seeds, or four fenugreek supplement capsules and half a teaspoon of saw palmetto in order to see positive and “impressive” results.

[Lotus]

that's cause Lotus is the great guru of research

I had taken FG for a while and I found it did nothing for me, not so much as a twinge or even smelling like maple syrup so I discontinued that herb.

You need at least one teaspoon a day of ground fenugreek seeds, or four fenugreek supplement capsules and half a teaspoon of saw palmetto in order to see positive and “impressive” results.

Saw palmetto is ineffective for breast growth---read our archives, also, read the study (in this thread) on the dosage, 600 mg proved to be effective in raising estradiol.  I'd make sure it was a minimum of 50% saponins, thus the lower dosage. Reishi extract by far is the best anti-androgen for NBE.....it blocks type I and II 5 alpha reductase enzyme. It's effective for hrt too (a recent blood test proved it).

[EllaC]

that's cause Lotus is the great guru of research

I had taken FG for a while and I found it did nothing for me, not so much as a twinge or even smelling like maple syrup so I discontinued that herb.

You need at least one teaspoon a day of ground fenugreek seeds, or four fenugreek supplement capsules and half a teaspoon of saw palmetto in order to see positive and “impressive” results.

Saw palmetto is ineffective for breast growth---read our archives, also, read the study (in this thread) on the dosage, 600 mg proved to be effective in raising estradiol.  I'd make sure it was a minimum of 50% saponins, thus the lower dosage. Reishi extract by far is the best anti-androgen for NBE.....it blocks type I and II 5 alpha reductase enzyme. It's effective for hrt too (a recent blood test proved it).

Oh wow really. So fenugreek raises estradiol and SP raises estradiol?.....

[wagon train]

that's cause Lotus is the great guru of research

I had taken FG for a while and I found it did nothing for me, not so much as a twinge or even smelling like maple syrup so I discontinued that herb.

You need at least one teaspoon a day of ground fenugreek seeds, or four fenugreek supplement capsules and half a teaspoon of saw palmetto in order to see positive and “impressive” results.

Saw palmetto is ineffective for breast growth---read our archives, also, read the study (in this thread) on the dosage, 600 mg proved to be effective in raising estradiol.  I'd make sure it was a minimum of 50% saponins, thus the lower dosage. Reishi extract by far is the best anti-androgen for NBE.....it blocks type I and II 5 alpha reductase enzyme. It's effective for hrt too (a recent blood test proved it).

Hey Lotus! Thank you for this thread. Quick question. I was going to use Fenugreek with 50% saponins in my luteal 
phase for Prolactin but since it lowers progesterone wouldn't that be counterproductive since P is naturally supposed to be higher during the luteal? 

And should someone take a herb for Prolactin all cycle long? 

Thank you!

[Lotus]

Hey Lotus! Thank you for this thread. Quick question. I was going to use Fenugreek with 50% saponins in my luteal 
phase for Prolactin but since it lowers progesterone wouldn't that be counterproductive since P is naturally supposed to be higher during the luteal? 

And should someone take a herb for Prolactin all cycle long? 

Thank you!

Hi Arwen,

Great question...MissB asked a similar question, i think the info still stands. 

Per the study:

The investigational product contained 300 mg of libifem, a standardised extract of T.foenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract [dry concentrate 33:1] equivalent to 9.9 g dry herb, standardised to a minimum 50% saponin glycosides.

foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels.(Simon, 2011) 

Study participants underwent follicular blood tests on day 7-9, (though not all did).....thus the data on increased estradiol. It makes sense (to me) taking FG in follicular.....vitex in luteal would work too. And in my opinion Vitex is a generic version of Prozac.....which will increase PRL (and it does).  

Fenugreek lowers progesterone and raises estradiol followed by prolactin.

Hey Lotus
I thought since FG raises estradiol, wouldn't that be taken when E rises? But you're also saying it raises P-- so I am a bit confused lol (sorry) this whole time I thought FG worked on E and should be taken during follicular?

Do you think FG extract should be cycled the same way because it would have the same effect? I have been considering Fenu extract, flaxseed and hops oils (all topical)

Hey there missB,

The science from the study indicates estradiol (in the second month) was raised by 50%(my calculations) @ 600 mg a day for two menstrual cycles. Btw, FG needs to be at least 50% steroidal saponins. (NOTE-that's not a misprint, only 600 mg was used).

 steroidal saponins reported to exhibit estrogenic effects including binding to E2 receptors and inducing the expression of E2 responsive genes (Sreejaet al., 2010). 

It raises prolactin yes, though not as significant as estradiol. From the study, FG lowers cholesterol, SHBG, progesterone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). It also raises LH (lutenizing hormone @ 41%)......thus the need for additional 5 AR inhibitor.

To me, FG needs to be in first half and Vitex in the second half. I'll have to adjust the supplement info about FG lowering progesterone. Alternately, I'd take FG with a conversion supplement (pro-aromatase) considering what it does to FSH, which synthesizes aromatase. I'm excited about a new aromatase approach using EPO and peanut oil, though I'm looking for an alternative for those with peanut allergies. What the 2 combination does is its binding albilty in EGF (epidermal growth factor), I'll post more info on the X thread. 

Topical FG is OK (though much DHT is in skin). Use a good skin penetrator that inhibits 5 Alpaha Reductase (inhibits DHT) too.....EPO (evening prime rose oil) could work. The study size was 80 premenopausal women.