[wagon train]

Hey Lotus! Thank you for this thread. Quick question. I was going to use Fenugreek with 50% saponins in my luteal 
phase for Prolactin but since it lowers progesterone wouldn't that be counterproductive since P is naturally supposed to be higher during the luteal? 

And should someone take a herb for Prolactin all cycle long? 

Thank you!

Hi Arwen,

Great question...MissB asked a similar question, i think the info still stands. 

Per the study:

The investigational product contained 300 mg of libifem, a standardised extract of T.foenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract [dry concentrate 33:1] equivalent to 9.9 g dry herb, standardised to a minimum 50% saponin glycosides.

foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels.(Simon, 2011) 

Study participants underwent follicular blood tests on day 7-9, (though not all did).....thus the data on increased estradiol. It makes sense (to me) taking FG in follicular.....vitex in luteal would work too. And in my opinion Vitex is a generic version of Prozac.....which will increase PRL (and it does).  

Fenugreek lowers progesterone and raises estradiol followed by prolactin.

Hey Lotus
I thought since FG raises estradiol, wouldn't that be taken when E rises? But you're also saying it raises P-- so I am a bit confused lol (sorry) this whole time I thought FG worked on E and should be taken during follicular?

Do you think FG extract should be cycled the same way because it would have the same effect? I have been considering Fenu extract, flaxseed and hops oils (all topical)

Hey there missB,

The science from the study indicates estradiol (in the second month) was raised by 50%(my calculations) @ 600 mg a day for two menstrual cycles. Btw, FG needs to be at least 50% steroidal saponins. (NOTE-that's not a misprint, only 600 mg was used).

 steroidal saponins reported to exhibit estrogenic effects including binding to E2 receptors and inducing the expression of E2 responsive genes (Sreejaet al., 2010). 

It raises prolactin yes, though not as significant as estradiol. From the study, FG lowers cholesterol, SHBG, progesterone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). It also raises LH (lutenizing hormone @ 41%)......thus the need for additional 5 AR inhibitor.

To me, FG needs to be in first half and Vitex in the second half. I'll have to adjust the supplement info about FG lowering progesterone. Alternately, I'd take FG with a conversion supplement (pro-aromatase) considering what it does to FSH, which synthesizes aromatase. I'm excited about a new aromatase approach using EPO and peanut oil, though I'm looking for an alternative for those with peanut allergies. What the 2 combination does is its binding albilty in EGF (epidermal growth factor), I'll post more info on the X thread. 

Topical FG is OK (though much DHT is in skin). Use a good skin penetrator that inhibits 5 Alpaha Reductase (inhibits DHT) too.....EPO (evening prime rose oil) could work. The study size was 80 premenopausal women.  

Got it, Well I was going to be taking FG in my luteal to increase prolactin and also provide my body with raised levels of Estrogen instead of taking PM all cycle long. What prolactin and estrogenic herb would you recommend to take after ovulation? And would FG be ok if I was using PC since PC is strong and maybe FG wouldn't effect it that much?

[---]

Hey Lotus!! 

Thanks for all this great info and sharing with us all! I know this takes such hard work, and you're so generous in how you help us!! 


I have a question about Vitex! I originally was planning on taking Vitex during follicular because I researched and found out that Vitex raises LH and also encourages ovulation. I also found a few sites that encouraged taking Vitex during follicular phase for this specific reason, and also because it takes time for it to raise P levels, so the idea is if you take it during follicular, by the time Luteal rolls around it will help P levels to dominate without even taking it during that phase. Does any of that makes sense to you lol?? I can explain it better if it doesn't.

But I would like to know what your thoughts are on all of this? Knowing that it encourages ovulation and healthy ovulations are what help to produce raised levels of progesterone, wouldn't you agree that it might be more beneficial to either take Vitex during follicular, or take it month long?? 

Xoxo

[wagon train]

Thank you to both Lotus and Zara! You've both been so informative and helpful.

Lotus in regards to a source to increase estrogen and prolactin in the luteal would Shatavari be a good option?

or maybe Anise, Black Cohosh, or Alfalfa for estrogen?

[NaturalLady31]

Hey Lotus!! 

Thanks for all this great info and sharing with us all! I know this takes such hard work, and you're so generous in how you help us!! 


I have a question about Vitex! I originally was planning on taking Vitex during follicular because I researched and found out that Vitex raises LH and also encourages ovulation. I also found a few sites that encouraged taking Vitex during follicular phase for this specific reason, and also because it takes time for it to raise P levels, so the idea is if you take it during follicular, by the time Luteal rolls around it will help P levels to dominate without even taking it during that phase. Does any of that makes sense to you lol?? I can explain it better if it doesn't.

But I would like to know what your thoughts are on all of this? Knowing that it encourages ovulation and healthy ovulations are what help to produce raised levels of progesterone, wouldn't you agree that it might be more beneficial to either take Vitex during follicular, or take it month long?? 

Xoxo

Good question, ZaraAri. I would like to know the answer to this too!  I have a slight progesterone deficiency and have started using a small amount of vitex only during luteal, but is this the best way to increase luteal progesterone effectively at the appropriate time?? 

Also, Lotus, my FSH surge is slightly low according to my last hormone test. Is taking any form or amount of vitex a bad idea in this case? I've read that vitex lowers FSH significantly.

[---]

I'm so confused, lol. I read that research paper that you linked (Sreejaet al., 2010), Lotus, and I couldn't find where it says that it lowers progesterone. I did see that it raised estradiol though. I also found some separate research showing that fenugreek has been studied to increase progesterone in lab rats and mice, but I haven't been able to find any human studies on fenugreek's effect on progesterone.

Could you point me to where it talks about progesterone in the study? Maybe I'm reading the wrong one. 


Xoxo

[Lotus]

Hey Lotus! Thank you for this thread. Quick question. I was going to use Fenugreek with 50% saponins in my luteal 
phase for Prolactin but since it lowers progesterone wouldn't that be counterproductive since P is naturally supposed to be higher during the luteal? 

And should someone take a herb for Prolactin all cycle long? 

Thank you!

Hi Arwen,

Great question...MissB asked a similar question, i think the info still stands. 

Per the study:

The investigational product contained 300 mg of libifem, a standardised extract of T.foenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract [dry concentrate 33:1] equivalent to 9.9 g dry herb, standardised to a minimum 50% saponin glycosides.

foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels.(Simon, 2011) 

Study participants underwent follicular blood tests on day 7-9, (though not all did).....thus the data on increased estradiol. It makes sense (to me) taking FG in follicular.....vitex in luteal would work too. And in my opinion Vitex is a generic version of Prozac.....which will increase PRL (and it does).  

Fenugreek lowers progesterone and raises estradiol followed by prolactin.

Hey Lotus
I thought since FG raises estradiol, wouldn't that be taken when E rises? But you're also saying it raises P-- so I am a bit confused lol (sorry) this whole time I thought FG worked on E and should be taken during follicular?

Do you think FG extract should be cycled the same way because it would have the same effect? I have been considering Fenu extract, flaxseed and hops oils (all topical)

Hey there missB,

The science from the study indicates estradiol (in the second month) was raised by 50%(my calculations) @ 600 mg a day for two menstrual cycles. Btw, FG needs to be at least 50% steroidal saponins. (NOTE-that's not a misprint, only 600 mg was used).

 steroidal saponins reported to exhibit estrogenic effects including binding to E2 receptors and inducing the expression of E2 responsive genes (Sreejaet al., 2010). 

It raises prolactin yes, though not as significant as estradiol. From the study, FG lowers cholesterol, SHBG, progesterone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). It also raises LH (lutenizing hormone @ 41%)......thus the need for additional 5 AR inhibitor.

To me, FG needs to be in first half and Vitex in the second half. I'll have to adjust the supplement info about FG lowering progesterone. Alternately, I'd take FG with a conversion supplement (pro-aromatase) considering what it does to FSH, which synthesizes aromatase. I'm excited about a new aromatase approach using EPO and peanut oil, though I'm looking for an alternative for those with peanut allergies. What the 2 combination does is its binding albilty in EGF (epidermal growth factor), I'll post more info on the X thread. 

Topical FG is OK (though much DHT is in skin). Use a good skin penetrator that inhibits 5 Alpaha Reductase (inhibits DHT) too.....EPO (evening prime rose oil) could work. The study size was 80 premenopausal women.  

Got it, Well I was going to be taking FG in my luteal to increase prolactin and also provide my body with raised levels of Estrogen instead of taking PM all cycle long. What prolactin and estrogenic herb would you recommend to take after ovulation? And would FG be ok if I was using PC since PC is strong and maybe FG wouldn't effect it that much?

Ok, I see the direction your describing for luteal (if for the reason of maintaining [e.g. simultaneous) levels of estrogen / progesterone) I understand. When E & progesterone are combined there's a significant increase in synthesis. Yes, PC would be stronger over FG, plus progesterone (cream) will reset breast receptors and inhibit DHT. 

Stick with FG (in luteal) if you have PM in phase one, try to complete a blood test (minimum E2 + progesterone)....in my opinion a blood test is the only standard by which to measure hormones. PC + FG could be a good combo.

Apologies for the late response, I've been poisoned (food, lol) from a salad I ate recently (McD's)....ugh!....my responses might take a bit longer. 

[NaturalLady31]

Hey Lotus! Thank you for this thread. Quick question. I was going to use Fenugreek with 50% saponins in my luteal 
phase for Prolactin but since it lowers progesterone wouldn't that be counterproductive since P is naturally supposed to be higher during the luteal? 

And should someone take a herb for Prolactin all cycle long? 

Thank you!

Hi Arwen,

Great question...MissB asked a similar question, i think the info still stands. 

Per the study:

The investigational product contained 300 mg of libifem, a standardised extract of T.foenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract [dry concentrate 33:1] equivalent to 9.9 g dry herb, standardised to a minimum 50% saponin glycosides.

foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels.(Simon, 2011) 

Study participants underwent follicular blood tests on day 7-9, (though not all did).....thus the data on increased estradiol. It makes sense (to me) taking FG in follicular.....vitex in luteal would work too. And in my opinion Vitex is a generic version of Prozac.....which will increase PRL (and it does).  

Fenugreek lowers progesterone and raises estradiol followed by prolactin.

Hey there missB,

The science from the study indicates estradiol (in the second month) was raised by 50%(my calculations) @ 600 mg a day for two menstrual cycles. Btw, FG needs to be at least 50% steroidal saponins. (NOTE-that's not a misprint, only 600 mg was used).


It raises prolactin yes, though not as significant as estradiol. From the study, FG lowers cholesterol, SHBG, progesterone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). It also raises LH (lutenizing hormone @ 41%)......thus the need for additional 5 AR inhibitor.

To me, FG needs to be in first half and Vitex in the second half. I'll have to adjust the supplement info about FG lowering progesterone. Alternately, I'd take FG with a conversion supplement (pro-aromatase) considering what it does to FSH, which synthesizes aromatase. I'm excited about a new aromatase approach using EPO and peanut oil, though I'm looking for an alternative for those with peanut allergies. What the 2 combination does is its binding albilty in EGF (epidermal growth factor), I'll post more info on the X thread. 

Topical FG is OK (though much DHT is in skin). Use a good skin penetrator that inhibits 5 Alpaha Reductase (inhibits DHT) too.....EPO (evening prime rose oil) could work. The study size was 80 premenopausal women.  

Got it, Well I was going to be taking FG in my luteal to increase prolactin and also provide my body with raised levels of Estrogen instead of taking PM all cycle long. What prolactin and estrogenic herb would you recommend to take after ovulation? And would FG be ok if I was using PC since PC is strong and maybe FG wouldn't effect it that much?

Ok, I see the direction your describing for luteal (if for the reason of maintaining [e.g. simultaneous) levels of estrogen / progesterone) I understand. When E & progesterone are combined there's a significant increase in synthesis. Yes, PC would be stronger over FG, plus progesterone (cream) will reset breast receptors and inhibit DHT. 

Stick with FG (in luteal) if you have PM in phase one, try to complete a blood test (minimum E2 + progesterone)....in my opinion a blood test is the only standard by which to measure hormones. PC + FG could be a good combo.

Apologies for the late response, I've been poisoned (food, lol) from a salad I ate recently (McD's)....ugh!....my responses might take a bit longer. 

Oh no, Lotus! Hope you feel MUCH better soon!  I'd probably never eat another salad again, lol.. not from there anyway.
I hope I'm not straying too far off topic here, but you mentioned in this thread about using topicals for inhibiting DHT. I think you were talking about evening primrose oil, but is that the only thing that would be effective for this purpose? I like the idea of using something topical for DHT! 
Again, rest up and feel better!

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[Lotus]

Oh no, Lotus! Hope you feel MUCH  better soon!  I'd probably never eat another salad again, lol.. not from there anyway.

Aw thanks...yes never again will eat salad from there. Test result showed over 100,000 colonies CFU/mL of E.coli...(which means it's a full blown infection).....kinda like they trying to kill me huh?...at least the bleeding stopped. So sorry ladies but my mind isn't all here atm. I'll catch up soon. 

[EllaC]

Oh no, Lotus! Hope you feel MUCH  better soon!  I'd probably never eat another salad again, lol.. not from there anyway.

Aw thanks...yes never again will eat salad from there. Test result showed over 100,000 colonies CFU/mL of E.coli...(which means it's a full blown infection).....kinda like they trying to kill me huh?...at least the bleeding stopped. So sorry ladies but my mind isn't all here atm. I'll catch up soon. 

Thats nasty! K well there are certain strains of probiotics that kill off ecoli. I cant recall but i think allicin (garlic) is one of them, have a google if your up to. Im lying down myself after eating something WAY to sweet!

[---]

Oh no, Lotus! Hope you feel MUCH  better soon!  I'd probably never eat another salad again, lol.. not from there anyway.

Aw thanks...yes never again will eat salad from there. Test result showed over 100,000 colonies CFU/mL of E.coli...(which means it's a full blown infection).....kinda like they trying to kill me huh?...at least the bleeding stopped. So sorry ladies but my mind isn't all here atm. I'll catch up soon. 

Ohmygosh no that's horrible!! Sending well wishes to you, Lotus! Rest up and get well soon!! 

<3