[surferjoe2007]

I thought I'd clean up and organize my simple program a bit better.

Option 1, Easy but Minor Growth (1-3 cup sizes, often 1-2):
For this option you should be starting as at least a B cup-ish before any NBE (possibly more or less by height & weight).  

Herbs:

• 600 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract
  
• 320 mg saw palmetto extract
  
• 1 tbsp. ground flax seeds (nice in a smoothie, with honey, as a topping, etc.)
  
• 1 capsule vitex (around 300-700 mg)
  
• Optional: a scoop of collagen powder.  A capsule is too small.
  
• Optional: You may add in a little massage with flax oil since it's good for you, but beyond that I suggest Option 2.
  
• Optional: 3g maca for the butt.
  

Option 2, Major Growth, or Growth starting Smaller than B Cup (Around 4-8 cup sizes)

If you are starting smaller, use the foods below for up to 6 months before beginning.  You may try herbs after as little as 2 months, but you might be wasting the herbs and should not increase beyond a low amount until you start to grow.  If you are starting with at least a B cup, you may use both the herbs and the foods below right away.  Continue both indefinitely.

Herbs:
Increase each cycle, allowing 2-4 cycles before the max amount.  If less growth is desired, stop the PM and PC at a lower amount.

• 50% saponin shatavari extract:  600 mg increased to 1,800-2,400 mg.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: 320 mg.
  
• Pueraria mirifica: Follicular, 100 mg increased to 750-1,000 mg.  Luteal, 100 mg.
  
• Progesterone cream: Follicular, 1/8 tsp.  Luteal: 1/4 tsp increased to 3/4-1 tsp.
  
• Massage at least 3-4 times a week with flax oil, for 10-15 minutes.
  
• Optional: 3-10g maca (about 1-3 tsp) for the butt.  Also optional weighted squats with 5g creatine.
  

Going all out (all optional):

• Do the above for at least 1 cycle first, if not longer.
  
• You may add 5 mg mk-677, increased to 10-20 mg.  Read a few forums to find a good source and other information before using mk-677.  Another much more expensive option instead of mk-677 is Antler Farms deer velvet, 1/4 tablet increased to 1 tablet.
  
• You may massage up to twice a day and pump too if you're in a hurry.  But keep in mind, like everything else, long term it won't make a difference unless you continue it for life."Long term" is after 1-2 years, so it will still be nice for a while.
  
• Fish oil, or 75% fish oil and 25% flax oil is superior to flax oil for massage but smelly.  You may also mix in 0.5% 95%/T95 mixed tocopherol vitamin E oil too.  Or mix in 1% for the  50%/T50 oil.
  
• You may use both saw palmetto and mint (see substitutions section for amount).  Or reishi in place of saw palmetto and/or white peony in place of mint.
  

Foods for Body Enhancement

Why

Foods contain a much wider range of nutrients than you can find in any supplement.  Many hair, skin, nail, vein, acne, weight loss, mood, HGH, energy, youth, etc., etc. supplements contain just part of the nutrients below.  By getting these nutrients from whole food you get both a more complete and effective solution, and you tackle all of these issues at the same time.  Additionally these nutrients are tools and fuel to enable your body perform better, whether for a workout or to better respond to herbs.

Many people think they eat healthy but actually aren't getting all the nutrition they need.  Those on a high protein diet in particular may think that it is healthy but they are often starving themselves not only for calories but also several nutrients.  You can verify that the items in the recipe below cover your nutrient requirements by checking the USDA nutrient database.  Also provided in these foods but not included on the USDA site are many other important nutrients such as antioxidants, beta/etc. tocopherols, and so on.  That's why a multi-vitamin is lacking several items you need.

Recipe

1/4 cup pumpkin seeds
1/4 cup sunflower seeds
1/4 cup almonds
6,000 mg fish oil, or 2lbs. salmon per week, or more of other seafood
3,000 mg lecithin, or a half dozen whole eggs (including yolk) per week
2,000 iu vitamin D, or a slight sun tan
4 tsp rice bran
1/2 an orange, or more of other fresh raw produce
A pinch or so of kelp each week on food (get a shaker for a 6-24 month supply)

Soak the 3 seeds for at least 4 hours, or overnight.  Rinse and snack on.  Take or eat remaining items, with liquid if needed.  These are heavy and fibrous foods.  When first starting use much less, such as 1/4 as much, until your stomach is accustomed to them.  Otherwise you could get digestive issues.

Try it out for at least 2 months, sometimes 6 months, before you expect to see results.  It takes a couple months to replenish your body's stores of these nutrients so that they start working, and if you need them to build something such as your breasts or butt then that could take additional time.

Herb Substitutions

• Shatavari: An equal amount of 50% saponin fenugreek extract may be used in place of shatavari.  You may use a 4:1 wild yam or goat's rue extract, but it may take 5 times as much wild yam and up to 10 times as much goat's rue.  If using goat's rue extract it should not go beyond 6,000 mg 4:1 extract.  Beyond that you should use a different herb instead.  If you find a 10:1 extract, it would require about 3 times as much wild yam or 6 times as much goat's rue, and you should not go beyond the 3600 mg 10:1 goat's rue extract.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: You may replace with 2-10g dry mint, 30g fresh mint (it's super easy to grow), reishi or white peony.  I don't know how much reishi or white peony.
  
• Flax seeds: 100 mg PM, 1,200 mg hops, soy isoflavones (typically a capsule or two).
  
• Vitex: 1/16-1/8 tsp progesterone cream.
  
• PM, PC: 250 mg Bovine ovary may replace about 100 mg PM and 1/8 tsp PC.  More might replace more, but many women have difficulty tolerating this.  See also substitutions for flax seeds and vitex (including 1 tbsp. flax seeds and 1 capsule vitex).
  

Hi Joe,

Thank you so much for compiling information and sharing your wisdom. I read lots of your posts and is currently following your older nutritional program with 2 tsp of spuriluna, rice bran and brewer's yeast powder per day. 

I have been skninny my whole life (genetic) at 5”5 and 107lbs with aaa (or perhaps even more a’s) cup. I had been on this diet  for 2 weeks now and hopefully will see some positive response soon. I see in your newer program you now recommend the nut mix. Do you believe that is superior then the older powder program? Sprinrula is nasty but I had no problem drinking it. Would like to hear your opinion on it. Thanks in advance!

Both mixes work.  But 2 tsp was just the starting amounts IIRC.  Once you increase to the full amount it will get harder to eat.  You can do half morning half evening, which is better for you anyway, or half of that mix and half nuts+rice bran+etc, etc.  That other mix has less omega 6s which is nice because it reduces the fish oil required, but it also has less freshness and is strong tasting.  So up to you.  Either or part of both.  I settled on the nut mix because it's easiest to use.

[FlatMeow]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the reply! I will add the nut mix to encorporate both methods! 

In your opinion, will one still be able to growth if having less then the recommended nutrition value? Perhaps a slower growth? I am asking because my digestive system is weak, I can take all the supplement and eat all the nuts but it’s unknown how much is really absorbed. At the same time, I don’t know my highest allowable intake without stressing my digestive system...until I stress it out hahaha

Also, what do you think of protein powder. I am also taking 23g of protein powder daily. I figure it shouldn’t harm but would like to hear what you think. Thanks again!

[surferjoe2007]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the reply! I will add the nut mix to encorporate both methods! 

In your opinion, will one still be able to growth if having less then the recommended nutrition value? Perhaps a slower growth? I am asking because my digestive system is weak, I can take all the supplement and eat all the nuts but it’s unknown how much is really absorbed. At the same time, I don’t know my highest allowable intake without stressing my digestive system...until I stress it out hahaha

Also, what do you think of protein powder. I am also taking 23g of protein powder daily. I figure it shouldn’t harm but would like to hear what you think. Thanks again!

A digestive enzyme supplement can help with your digestion.  And after eating it for a while your digestion may improve too.

Protein powder is pretty useless.  Almost everyone already gets plenty of protein, so your body will take the extra, strip off the nitrogen, pee it out, and make the rest into carbs.  It's empty calories so you'll fill up sooner while missing out on valuable nutrients.  It also tends to be whey protein which is missing important aminos like L-arginine and low in sulphurous aminos needed to make elastic tissue.  So you're paying for empty, belly-increasing calories and piss.  Collagen powder is a better type of protein for making elastic tissue for bigger and firmer breasts.  And actually both nutritional mixes already have plenty of L-arginine, sulphurous aminos, protein in general and nearly all the other nutrients you need.  So if you're using one of the nutritional mixes you don't need collagen powder either, nor almost all other nutritional supplements.

[FlatMeow]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the reply! I will add the nut mix to encorporate both methods! 

In your opinion, will one still be able to growth if having less then the recommended nutrition value? Perhaps a slower growth? I am asking because my digestive system is weak, I can take all the supplement and eat all the nuts but it’s unknown how much is really absorbed. At the same time, I don’t know my highest allowable intake without stressing my digestive system...until I stress it out hahaha

Also, what do you think of protein powder. I am also taking 23g of protein powder daily. I figure it shouldn’t harm but would like to hear what you think. Thanks again!

A digestive enzyme supplement can help with your digestion.  And after eating it for a while your digestion may improve too.

Protein powder is pretty useless.  Almost everyone already gets plenty of protein, so your body will take the extra, strip off the nitrogen, pee it out, and make the rest into carbs.  It's empty calories so you'll fill up sooner while missing out on valuable nutrients.  It also tends to be whey protein which is missing important aminos like L-arginine and low in sulphurous aminos needed to make elastic tissue.  So you're paying for empty, belly-increasing calories and piss.  Collagen powder is a better type of protein for making elastic tissue for bigger and firmer breasts.  And actually both nutritional mixes already have plenty of L-arginine, sulphurous aminos, protein in general and nearly all the other nutrients you need.  So if you're using one of the nutritional mixes you don't need collagen powder either, nor almost all other nutritional supplements.

Thanks for your help again! I am already on digestive enzymes although I frequently forgot to take them.

That’s too bad protein powder is not helping. I drink it after my meal to avoid eating less regular food (I get full very easily). I will drop the protein powder after finishing my inventory   . So glad to have you here to guide us!

[Kiast]

I thought I'd clean up and organize my simple program a bit better.

Option 1, Easy but Minor Growth (1-3 cup sizes, often 1-2):
For this option you should be starting as at least a B cup-ish before any NBE (possibly more or less by height & weight).  

Herbs:

• 600 mg 50% saponin shatavari extract
  
• 320 mg saw palmetto extract
  
• 1 tbsp. ground flax seeds (nice in a smoothie, with honey, as a topping, etc.)
  
• 1 capsule vitex (around 300-700 mg)
  
• Optional: a scoop of collagen powder.  A capsule is too small.
  
• Optional: You may add in a little massage with flax oil since it's good for you, but beyond that I suggest Option 2.
  
• Optional: 3g maca for the butt.
  

Option 2, Major Growth, or Growth starting Smaller than B Cup (Around 4-8 cup sizes)

If you are starting smaller, use the foods below for up to 6 months before beginning.  You may try herbs after as little as 2 months, but you might be wasting the herbs and should not increase beyond a low amount until you start to grow.  If you are starting with at least a B cup, you may use both the herbs and the foods below right away.  Continue both indefinitely.

Herbs:
Increase each cycle, allowing 2-4 cycles before the max amount.  If less growth is desired, stop the PM and PC at a lower amount.

• 50% saponin shatavari extract:  600 mg increased to 1,800-2,400 mg.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: 320 mg.
  
• Pueraria mirifica: Follicular, 100 mg increased to 750-1,000 mg.  Luteal, 100 mg.
  
• Progesterone cream: Follicular, 1/8 tsp.  Luteal: 1/4 tsp increased to 3/4-1 tsp.
  
• Massage at least 3-4 times a week with flax oil, for 10-15 minutes.
  
• Optional: 3-10g maca (about 1-3 tsp) for the butt.  Also optional weighted squats with 5g creatine.
  

Going all out (all optional):

• Do the above for at least 1 cycle first, if not longer.
  
• You may add 5 mg mk-677, increased to 10-20 mg.  Read a few forums to find a good source and other information before using mk-677.  Another much more expensive option instead of mk-677 is Antler Farms deer velvet, 1/4 tablet increased to 1 tablet.
  
• You may massage up to twice a day and pump too if you're in a hurry.  But keep in mind, like everything else, long term it won't make a difference unless you continue it for life."Long term" is after 1-2 years, so it will still be nice for a while.
  
• Fish oil, or 75% fish oil and 25% flax oil is superior to flax oil for massage but smelly.  You may also mix in 0.5% 95%/T95 mixed tocopherol vitamin E oil too.  Or mix in 1% for the  50%/T50 oil.
  
• You may use both saw palmetto and mint (see substitutions section for amount).  Or reishi in place of saw palmetto and/or white peony in place of mint.
  

Foods for Body Enhancement

Why

Foods contain a much wider range of nutrients than you can find in any supplement.  Many hair, skin, nail, vein, acne, weight loss, mood, HGH, energy, youth, etc., etc. supplements contain just part of the nutrients below.  By getting these nutrients from whole food you get both a more complete and effective solution, and you tackle all of these issues at the same time.  Additionally these nutrients are tools and fuel to enable your body perform better, whether for a workout or to better respond to herbs.

Many people think they eat healthy but actually aren't getting all the nutrition they need.  Those on a high protein diet in particular may think that it is healthy but they are often starving themselves not only for calories but also several nutrients.  You can verify that the items in the recipe below cover your nutrient requirements by checking the USDA nutrient database.  Also provided in these foods but not included on the USDA site are many other important nutrients such as antioxidants, beta/etc. tocopherols, and so on.  That's why a multi-vitamin is lacking several items you need.

Recipe

1/4 cup pumpkin seeds
1/4 cup sunflower seeds
1/4 cup almonds
6,000 mg fish oil, or 2lbs. salmon per week, or more of other seafood
3,000 mg lecithin, or a half dozen whole eggs (including yolk) per week
2,000 iu vitamin D, or a slight sun tan
4 tsp rice bran
1/2 an orange, or more of other fresh raw produce
A pinch or so of kelp each week on food (get a shaker for a 6-24 month supply)

Soak the 3 seeds for at least 4 hours, or overnight.  Rinse and snack on.  Take or eat remaining items, with liquid if needed.  These are heavy and fibrous foods.  When first starting use much less, such as 1/4 as much, until your stomach is accustomed to them.  Otherwise you could get digestive issues.

Try it out for at least 2 months, sometimes 6 months, before you expect to see results.  It takes a couple months to replenish your body's stores of these nutrients so that they start working, and if you need them to build something such as your breasts or butt then that could take additional time.

Herb Substitutions

• Shatavari: An equal amount of 50% saponin fenugreek extract may be used in place of shatavari.  You may use a 4:1 wild yam or goat's rue extract, but it may take 5 times as much wild yam and up to 10 times as much goat's rue.  If using goat's rue extract it should not go beyond 6,000 mg 4:1 extract.  Beyond that you should use a different herb instead.  If you find a 10:1 extract, it would require about 3 times as much wild yam or 6 times as much goat's rue, and you should not go beyond the 3600 mg 10:1 goat's rue extract.
  
• Saw palmetto extract: You may replace with 2-10g dry mint, 30g fresh mint (it's super easy to grow), reishi or white peony.  I don't know how much reishi or white peony.
  
• Flax seeds: 100 mg PM, 1,200 mg hops, soy isoflavones (typically a capsule or two).
  
• Vitex: 1/16-1/8 tsp progesterone cream.
  
• PM, PC: 250 mg Bovine ovary may replace about 100 mg PM and 1/8 tsp PC.  More might replace more, but many women have difficulty tolerating this.  See also substitutions for flax seeds and vitex (including 1 tbsp. flax seeds and 1 capsule vitex).
  

Hello! A quick question if you don’t mind. I can only find shatavari with 40% saponins in the UK...  do you have any suggestions re brand or modifying the dose in the light of this? Many thanks . Like the sound of the program and the logic behind it ... son fingers crossed!

[surferjoe2007]

40% is totally fine.  Just use 50/40th as much.  So multiply by 1.25.  But no need to be too precise.

[Kiast]

40% is totally fine.  Just use 50/40th as much.  So multiply by 1.25.  But no need to be too precise.

Thankyou for your response. Do ya reckon an old bag of 47 can grow a bit?! I’m a vintage failed wonderupper and noogler, exerciser, low body fat but not ridiculous, 5 .5 and 9 stone 9 ish with broad shoulders like a man, muscular arms and shoulders from outside work and a ridiculous 34B ish which looks silly with the frame lol  ... breastfed two kids also! Sounds tragic !

[surferjoe2007]

40% is totally fine.  Just use 50/40th as much.  So multiply by 1.25.  But no need to be too precise.

Thankyou for your response. Do ya reckon an old bag of 47 can grow a bit?! I’m a vintage failed wonderupper and noogler, exerciser, low body fat but not ridiculous, 5 .5 and 9 stone 9 ish with broad shoulders like a man, muscular arms and shoulders from outside work and a ridiculous 34B ish which looks silly with the frame lol  ... breastfed two kids also! Sounds tragic !

Yes most likely.  But using the nutritional mix is always a safer bet.

[Freckled.red.fox]

Hi surferjoe! I have been on and off this site for 10 years. I tried a few things, but never been consistent because i was always pregnant or breastfeeding. I have 5 girls (from 9yrs to 13 months). Im still breastfeeding the baby, but figured i could at least start with the nutritional part of the program. Im 33 and im 35.5-28.5-40.5 and im about 140lbs 5'6"

I was always a pear shaped (nice hips and bum) but very small breasts. I developped early and stopped early too lol... a small 34A. I used birth control very young (between 14 and 15) it was probably too strong...made me sick and i gained like 20lbs....on my hips and bum....nothing in my breasts....when i stopped the birth control, i lost some fullness, but kept my hips. I had eating disorder  because of it as a teenager (always trying to lose weight and not eating properly. Either too much or too lottle. After that, it was always hard to lose weight especially my lower body (exept when i was pregant, i was always more proportionate, never gain much weight, but lost my hips and thighs....never got more than 34b when pregnant or breastfeeding (maybe a C when my milk first came)
I know that once i stop breastfeeding ill be less than A and saggy :

i plan to test my hormones in a few months, i figure theres no point while breasfeeding. 
Ive been doing the nut mix for about a month now, i started the rice bran this week. I started vit D too. Im vegetarian, I do eat eggs, but no fish, i will see what i can do for the epa/dha. I started to sprout mung beans and alfalfa seeds. I drink spinach smoothies every morning ( i now mix half of my nut mix in my smoothie and eat the other half in my salad for supper) i eat lots of sauerkrout (that i make myself). I eat tofu, sweet potatoes,  beans, rice, im cutting down on my sugar intake....trying too. 

Is there anything else i can do for the next few months before starting my plan ( i plan to breastfeed maybe another month or 2)?

[surferjoe2007]

Hi surferjoe! I have been on and off this site for 10 years. I tried a few things, but never been consistent because i was always pregnant or breastfeeding. I have 5 girls (from 9yrs to 13 months). Im still breastfeeding the baby, but figured i could at least start with the nutritional part of the program. Im 33 and im 35.5-28.5-40.5 and im about 140lbs 5'6"

I was always a pear shaped (nice hips and bum) but very small breasts. I developped early and stopped early too lol... a small 34A. I used birth control very young (between 14 and 15) it was probably too strong...made me sick and i gained like 20lbs....on my hips and bum....nothing in my breasts....when i stopped the birth control, i lost some fullness, but kept my hips. I had eating disorder  because of it as a teenager (always trying to lose weight and not eating properly. Either too much or too lottle. After that, it was always hard to lose weight especially my lower body (exept when i was pregant, i was always more proportionate, never gain much weight, but lost my hips and thighs....never got more than 34b when pregnant or breastfeeding (maybe a C when my milk first came)
I know that once i stop breastfeeding ill be less than A and saggy :

i plan to test my hormones in a few months, i figure theres no point while breasfeeding. 
Ive been doing the nut mix for about a month now, i started the rice bran this week. I started vit D too. Im vegetarian, I do eat eggs, but no fish, i will see what i can do for the epa/dha. I started to sprout mung beans and alfalfa seeds. I drink spinach smoothies every morning ( i now mix half of my nut mix in my smoothie and eat the other half in my salad for supper) i eat lots of sauerkrout (that i make myself). I eat tofu, sweet potatoes,  beans, rice, im cutting down on my sugar intake....trying too. 

Is there anything else i can do for the next few months before starting my plan ( i plan to breastfeed maybe another month or 2)?

There are vegan EPA/DHA supplements.  Shoot for about 1,000-1,500 mg total.  Plus 1/2 tbsp-1 tbsp chia seeds for ALAs.  Watch out for vegan supplements with ALA omega 3s to cut costs.  They are important too but they aren't the same as EPA/DHA.  Omega 3 eggs have a small amount of ALA/EPA/DHA.  It's not enough, but since you should eat eggs anyway you can take a little less EPA/DHA pills.  Shellfish have no brain at all in case that helps.  ALA/EPA/DHA is extremely good in pregnancy and breastfeeding for the baby too.  If possible you can do extra in the short term to catch up.

A tiny bit of kelp or iodized salt is important too of course.

Spinach is one of the healthiest foods in the world.  A 1/4 lb. spinach can replace 1/4 cup of the nuts.  8 parts brown rice (dry measure) can replace 1 part rice bran.  The other foods seem healthy too.

After you test your hormones there's PC for more progesterone (and limit PM), PM for more estrogen (and limit PC), and other than that my first sig link should have you covered.  If your testosterone is really high you can combine SPE and mint instead of using only one.  Or their listed substitutes.