[nwyori]

Quick update: I saw some more growth in this cycle! I have stopped BO for two weeks now just to give it ample time to reset for the next cycle, but I still get sporatic growing sensations after stopping it. I'm on my period now and I measure at 92-93cm.

What might be contributing to the growth for me:

 - Maca twice daily

 - Casein powder before bed (I take it with yogurt)

 - Going to bed early, ideally before 10:30

 - HMB 2g, twice daily

I'm ordering mk-677 and trying MissMadScientist's regimen for the next cycle. Also starting to read papers on breast development, here's one I found informative: https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1023/A:1026487120779.pdf

[nwyori]

So I was trying to figure out how exactly progesterone helps with breast development (some threads claim that it balances out estrogen, and others say it's just anti-estrogenic, it's always been confusing).

"It appears that estrogens and progestogens act through and with proto-oncogenes and growth factors to affect breast cell proliferation and breast cancer etiology. Animal studies suggest that estrogen causes interlobular ductal cell division and progesterone causes increased terminal duct lobular unit cell division in the luteal phase..........Their reproduction is also increased during the luteal phase. Yet, there is considerable interpersonal variation. No studies examining breast cell division have compared cell division rates with serum hormone concentrations, however. The peak of mitosis occurs about 3 days before breast cell death in the late luteal and very early follicular phases."

This article suggests that mitosis peaks in week 4 of the menstrual cycle (*4 compared to week 2), and both E/P induces cell proliferation. Progesterone is primarily responsible for the development of the terminal duct lobules (see attached image), and estrogen for the ducts connecting the lobules.

[surferjoe2007]

I’m curious, when you used PM and PC every day did you cycle them, or did you use both every day?  Did it adversely affect your period?

Hi surferjoe,

I didn't use PC for every cycle, only when I got E dom symptoms. It did adversely affect my period when I applied too much PC throughout the luteal phase (I had a 45 day cycle!). My breasts even shrank by 1-2 cm, and they were constantly in a sort of dull pain (not tingling or shooting growing pains). BUT, the next cycle I had a growth spurt in the early follicular phase. My guess is that the ER sites were upregulated by the PC, or the higher levels of progesterone helped estrogen do its job. If you can shed some light on this it would be great!

More or less.  E and P work together.  Even if you don’t use PC the PM you use works with your natural P; if there’s enough.  Otherwise it can be counterproductive as it was with you.

So did you use PM only during follicular then?

[GrowGirl]

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Hi Nwyori,

What made you order mk-677? and which brand are you ordering? 

if you take that, do you think you'll have to continue to use it so that the breasts don't return to their previous size as this is a hormone, or do you think results will be permanent?  I ask because this is what miss mad scientist said "<meta charset="utf-8">I use this diet as a sort of kick starter to have a lot of breast tissue. I eventually want to keep my breast size by using the Noogleberry & also massaging every day. Plus I want to continue using the BCP and drinking whole milk."

Also is mk-677 safe? 

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[nwyori]

Surferjoe,

No, I use PM throughout the cycle (but now I've switched to BO), smaller dose or topical only in luteal. 

Hi Growgirl,
I got all the info about mk677 from Missmadscientist and surferjoe's threads! I have no background in biochem and I cannot confidently tell you whether it's safe - for now it's for lab use only in the US, though the bodybuilding community takes it and reports no negative side effects. 

So for this cycle:
    - BO 1000-1500mg total, spread throughout morning, afternoon, and before bed
    - GABA 3g and exercise. This is to help with HGH.   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18091016/
    - 1 melatonin pill before bed. For HGH and better sleep quality. 
    - (Maybe: Creatine 4g. Increases HGH significantly for 2-6 hours, which is more lasting than other supplements)
    - Arginine and no exercise(when I'm feeling lazy haha). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9063764/  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16741262/
    - Lifestyle wise: try to have a 12h fasting window; minimize sugar intake; 80g protein every day; casein shake before bed
    - Mk-677 for IGF-1. I will start at 5-10 mg per day.
    - HMB 2g per day. Increases HGH and IGF-1, and retains muscle gains (though there's contradicting evidence)
    - Regular supplements: fish oil, MSM, VitC. I'm no longer taking white peony this cycle because I will be starting BCP, which already contains strong anti-androgens. 
    - BCP recommended by Missmadscientist. 


Things to looks into:
    - According to a paper, mitosis in breast tissues is 4 folds in week 3 and 4 compared to the dormant follicular phase. I want to monitor growing pains and see if that's true. Also look into the mechanism. Follicular is high in estrogen (responsible for duct growth and adipose storage), and my boobs do swell/grow in follicular. Wondering why there isn't any mitosis. 
    - I'm getting great info from this paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404495/#R1 I think Lotus has posted it before. Will keep reading it.
    - I used some glycolic acid on my nipples for a couple of hours before applying the BO cream. Not sure if that helps. Keep monitoring. 

[nwyori]

[nwyori]

Maca works. It's almost an immediate effect. I was concerned that the adaptogens in maca would interfere with BO, but I think I will take it this cycle. Recap: last cycle I stopped BO two weeks before menstruation and took maca instead - I got even stronger growing pains on maca only, which I thought was due to the detox, but my hypothesis now is maca did the job. For now I want to test out if maca+BO = growth. Would love to hear your opinions/experience with maca!

Here's a great paper about the importance of IGF1 (systemic vs local). What we are doing with mk677 or other IGF1 enhancers is essentially increasing the systemic level of IGF1 *in the presence of local IGF1*, and according to the article it will induce mammary glands hyperplasia. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999497

[biggiwant]

But, I grew in the luteal phase(two weeks before menstruation) with BO.

Actually I take it all day except menstruation. But I saw the swelling in luteal phase. BO is progesterone effect, isn’t it? I am confused

[nwyori]

Hi biggiwant,

That sounds right because mitosis happens in the luteal phase. Missmadscientist has also suggested that we only need to be on BO from day 12 to 24. I read your BO thread and we have quite similar reactions to BO! (ovulation pain, spotting, growth in luteal, etc). BO is essentially ovarian tissue - it contains every type of ovarian hormones. Depending on when it's taken from a cow (nulliparous, estrus, given birth, etc), the content and ratio of those hormones might be different. You could find more info from the brand you get your BO from.

I want to answer GrowGirl's question again. Elevated levels of IGF1 (and other growth hormones) may cause cancer. It's not as risky as something like smoking cigarettes, but a link was found, although other research did not replicate the results or did not suggest a link. You should weigh the risks and use a moderate dose and be safe

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614012/

I've also realized that I can't delete (my own) posts. Can someone help me with this?

[surferjoe2007]

Surferjoe,

No, I use PM throughout the cycle (but now I've switched to BO), smaller dose or topical only in luteal.

It’s interesting that PM+PC would work without cycling and (I assume) didn’t mess with your period.  Maybe it’s the progesterone and the medium PM dose.

Safety on mk-677 is unknown, but seems very high so far in preliminary studies.  Likewise bodybuilder experiences show very high safety but are only short term anecdotes.  As an experimental drug it is not yet legal to prescribe it and isn’t for human consumption.  That said, the government isn’t cracking down hard on it either as with steroids and it’s pretty easy to get.  Theoretically the increase in IGF-1 could increase long term cancer risk a little, especially in the elderly.  Who are also the primary customer for the potential youth promoting drug.  So I can’t say it’s a good idea but I can’t say that it causes significant harm either.

Something very safe and legal for a little IGF-1 is DHEA.  One capsule at a time, as more won’t have any additional effect.  You can however take it twice a day, spread out, to get a little more effect.  It only increases IGF-1 by 20%, but that’s something.  It might also act as a precursor to other hormones iirc.  IMO try DHEA whether or not you also do anything else for IGF-1.

Another simple thing you can do is eat when hungry, and eat breakfast.  Mk-677 has all those IGF-1 and youth supporting benefits simply by imitating the hunger hormone.  That hormone is directly connected to IGF-1, which then causes all types of metabolism, energy, healing and development.  That includes joint healing and recovery, skin connective tissue for smoother/tighter skin, muscle growth and recovery, and, yes, boobs too.  Everything.  Breakfast likewise starts up your metabolism and so on.  It’s a huge myth to say “simply eat less to lose weight”, because hunger and metabolism are so tightly connected.  And most of that food you eat goes directly to use, not to belly fat.  Not eating is more likely to kill your metabolism, burn muscle and burn other useful tissues rather than belly fat.  It is helpful to diets to not eat when not hungry though, and to eat just enough.  That’s part of why diets must be gradual.

See sig threads for the most nutritious foods.  Calories are important too when hungry, as development, healing, energy and so on require a ton of fuel.