[jaykay]

I had a NBE program involving PM for a couple months that made me grow a 1/2 inch. However I was diagnosed with PCOS in December and since stopped everything out of fear I would make things worse. I got into an argument with an OBGYN, so I am getting a second opinion with an endocrinologist to find out some methods to help treat PCOS without using birth control. I have also been prescribed with an anti-androgen (spiro) but I am not taking it until I get my second opinion this week.

I was just wondering if there is any Breast Nexus veterans with PCOS and what their program consisted of? I know all too well how dangerous herbs can be and don't want to negatively mess with my body anymore than it already is (my testosterone is almost 2x the standard amount for an average woman and I have multiple cysts in my ovaries). I feel a bit lightheaded when I take fenugreek so I think it's a sign that I don't vibe with FG.

[Bustyprincess]

I had a NBE program involving PM for a couple months that made me grow a 1/2 inch. However I was diagnosed with PCOS in December and since stopped everything out of fear I would make things worse. I got into an argument with an OBGYN, so I am getting a second opinion with an endocrinologist to find out some methods to help treat PCOS without using birth control. I have also been prescribed with an anti-androgen (spiro) but I am not taking it until I get my second opinion this week.

I was just wondering if there is any Breast Nexus veterans with PCOS and what their program consisted of? I know all too well how dangerous herbs can be and don't want to negatively mess with my body anymore than it already is (my testosterone is almost 2x the standard amount for an average woman and I have multiple cysts in my ovaries). I feel a bit lightheaded when I take fenugreek so I think it's a sign that I don't vibe with FG.

I have no experience with PCOS however as someone who once needed anti androgens and took spiro for majority of my teenage years it really is the safest anti androgen out there, the side effects are far and few in between and the only real one is the fact it makes you crave salt alot more since its also used as a diuretic(water retention in other words makes u pee alot more) thats the literal only side effect I had in the 7+ years I was on them. Imo its the safest method, you could try the natural route of spearmint/peppermint however natural routes for anti androgens rarely work effectively enough for those who have very high T which from what you have said is your case.

[jaykay]

I had a NBE program involving PM for a couple months that made me grow a 1/2 inch. However I was diagnosed with PCOS in December and since stopped everything out of fear I would make things worse. I got into an argument with an OBGYN, so I am getting a second opinion with an endocrinologist to find out some methods to help treat PCOS without using birth control. I have also been prescribed with an anti-androgen (spiro) but I am not taking it until I get my second opinion this week.

I was just wondering if there is any Breast Nexus veterans with PCOS and what their program consisted of? I know all too well how dangerous herbs can be and don't want to negatively mess with my body anymore than it already is (my testosterone is almost 2x the standard amount for an average woman and I have multiple cysts in my ovaries). I feel a bit lightheaded when I take fenugreek so I think it's a sign that I don't vibe with FG.

I have no experience with PCOS however as someone who once needed anti androgens and took spiro for majority of my teenage years it really is the safest anti androgen out there, the side effects are far and few in between and the only real one is the fact it makes you crave salt alot more since its also used as a diuretic(water retention in other words makes u pee alot more) thats the literal only side effect I had in the 7+ years I was on them. Imo its the safest method, you could try the natural route of spearmint/peppermint however natural routes for anti androgens rarely work effectively enough for those who have very high T which from what you have said is your case.

Thank you! I'm not concerned with spiro, I'm definitely going to take it. I just didn't want to take it before my second opinion in case I need to "prove" that I have PCOS and didn't want to lower my testosterone in case they require me to get another blood test. I'm glad that there's no negative effects with spiro! Did you feel like it decreased masculine features or made you more feminine just from spiro? I a slightly broad jawline that I'm hoping spiro may soften. I wish they could put me on some bio-identical hormones and not synthetic hormones (ie birth control) because it wreaks havoc on my body.

[Bustyprincess]

I had a NBE program involving PM for a couple months that made me grow a 1/2 inch. However I was diagnosed with PCOS in December and since stopped everything out of fear I would make things worse. I got into an argument with an OBGYN, so I am getting a second opinion with an endocrinologist to find out some methods to help treat PCOS without using birth control. I have also been prescribed with an anti-androgen (spiro) but I am not taking it until I get my second opinion this week.

I was just wondering if there is any Breast Nexus veterans with PCOS and what their program consisted of? I know all too well how dangerous herbs can be and don't want to negatively mess with my body anymore than it already is (my testosterone is almost 2x the standard amount for an average woman and I have multiple cysts in my ovaries). I feel a bit lightheaded when I take fenugreek so I think it's a sign that I don't vibe with FG.

I have no experience with PCOS however as someone who once needed anti androgens and took spiro for majority of my teenage years it really is the safest anti androgen out there, the side effects are far and few in between and the only real one is the fact it makes you crave salt alot more since its also used as a diuretic(water retention in other words makes u pee alot more) thats the literal only side effect I had in the 7+ years I was on them. Imo its the safest method, you could try the natural route of spearmint/peppermint however natural routes for anti androgens rarely work effectively enough for those who have very high T which from what you have said is your case.

Thank you! I'm not concerned with spiro, I'm definitely going to take it. I just didn't want to take it before my second opinion in case I need to "prove" that I have PCOS and didn't want to lower my testosterone in case they require me to get another blood test. I'm glad that there's no negative effects with spiro! Did you feel like it decreased masculine features or made you more feminine just from spiro? I a slightly broad jawline that I'm hoping spiro may soften. I wish they could put me on some bio-identical hormones and not synthetic hormones (ie birth control) because it wreaks havoc on my body.

I completely understand about the hormones! Synthetic stuff really does have its cons and doesnt work in sync with the body like bio identical ones do hence why Ive been on bio for many many years now and I noticed a huge change in my body both breasts and softness overall compared to the synthetic, as for the spiro unfortunately nothing not even hormones or anti androgens can change bone structure thats why many that have these problems both cis or trans get bone work done(these are extremes however) however these two things(hormones and anti androgens alike) can soften things like your face by adding fatty tissue, I personally never had masculine features on my face but with the hormones plus BO my face has changed even more, softer, more fatty tissue/layers at jawline, cheeks and so on. So spiro may just do this for you if your T is too high and testosterone may just be stopping your body from its natural process of softening through fat distribution via hormones. Hope this helps.

[jaykay]

Very helpful, thank you so much for your detailed response!

[Bustyprincess]

Nws doll! If you have any other questions I can answer most in detail since I have been through hormone therapy and spiro(spiro up till 2 years and a half ago) since 16 under a endocrinologist with 30 years experience in the field he taught me alot in that time including the importance of progesterone for breast, gland and areola development. Goodluck X

[Lotus]

Hi Jakay, 

I wouldn't take spironolactone for PCOS, metformin is a better choice. Metformin also inhibits DHT, the strongest androgen. Spiro reduces progesterone and has some side effects, trans girls don't really care taking it. In fact there's up to a 70% incidence of MTF seeking breast augmentation after long term use of spiro. 

We need that progesterone plus estradiol and then inhibit androgens in breast tissue in order for breast growth to happen.

Testosterone isn't all bad for women...unless you have too much of it. Testosterone stimulates the libido in females' brains. 

 I don't think having PCOS means it has to be a lifelong battle. It's reported that 88% of women with PCOS are related to insulin resistance (IR), and of the 12% it'll be from adrenal issues.  And this is where metformin comes in. Metformin lowers the insulin response (or insulin resistance), meaning lowering blood glucose.  But let's back things up for a minute and start with stomach acid. See if the PCOS dysfunction can be controlled it needs to start with inhibiting stomach gastrin.  Metformin has side effects of nausea, diarrhoea, flatulence, bloating, anorexia, metallic taste and abdominal pain, so ask for the ER (extended release, it's much easier on the digestive system). Metformin stimulates AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) and is also referred to as the master regulator of energy homeostasis. This AMPK in Metformin increases longevity, which is cool right?. I mean who doesn't want to look younger.

Role of metformin in the management of polycystic ovary syndrome https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...o=0.602410

I refer to metformin here because of its action, lowering insulin.  Reducing inflammation can start in the mitochondria, which is its place of origin...aka-Mitochondrial Dysfunction

Mitochondrial Dysfunction and Damage Associated Molecular Patterns (DAMPs) in Chronic Inflammatory Diseases https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5988941/

I posted information regarding how inhibiting stomach gastrin helps breast growth, but the information on inhibiting gastrin follows the same hypothesis of treating PCOS by inhibiting gastrin https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=22417&pid=207918&highlight=inflammation#pid207918 Good luck. L. 

Ok,

After many years of being unsuccessful, I finally understood how my body works.
and with the help of Lotus who hinted to me that I might have PCOS after I posted my blood test.  (High prolactin and cortisol + low progesterone)
I researched a lot and put NBE on pause.

I think I will try NBE again, but in any case I feel much better now that I made all these adjustments in my life:

• PCOS is usually characterised by - but not only -  high androgens (testosterone) ====> But we know that testosterone prevents NBE
  
  
  
  
• PCOS women tend to have low Vitamin D3 levels =====> But we know that Vitamin D3 helps with the production of IGF-1 (from the Growth Hormone family which is required for NBE)
  
  
  
• PCOS women tend to have Insulin resistance (the body pumps more insulin because you are not sensitive to it) and we know that insulin act as a seesaw with Growth hormone (when Insulin in high/GH is low) ====> But you need Growth Hormone for NBE
  
  
  
• PCOS women suffer more from anxiety and depression (can cause stress and increase cortisol) 
  
  
  
• We know that high cortisol deplete your progesterone level ======> But you need Progesterone for NBE
  

[*]

So PCOS women - I am excited to announce that I did manage to reverse my PCOS with diet - I did the test and I nearly halved my testosterone levels and Increased by 1/3 my Vitamin D3 levels:

What I did, please note that this is not an NBE programme, but this helped me to feel 1 million times healthier, balanced my hormones and gave me a good starting point for NBE:

• Supplement with Vitamin D3 spray, I use this: http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/betteryou-dlux-3000-vitamin-d-oral-spray-60012895?skuid=012895&&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKEAiAz4XFBRCW87vj6-28uFMSJAAHeGZb6X7XB-lyLNwNPCp9JClGvhU7CDkK70xv_jGjfFqJpRoCkXXw_wcB
  
  
  
• I take 500mg of sea Magnesium before bed (muscle relaxant, will improve the quality of your sleep which will boost GH production
  
  
  
• Take Vitamin C for my adrenal and help Cortisol production (no need to steal from the progesterone no more)
  
  
  
• Changed my diet: Low carbs I have 1 slice of wholemeal toast in the morning with eggs and for the the other meals veggies + protein and nuts for snacks (the first 3 days will be hard but if you accept it and go over them you will no longer have cravings)
  
  
  
• I avoid snacking as much as possible (Remember, high insulin - which is produced as soon as you eat means low Growth Hormone!)
  
  
  
• Relax Relax Relax to decrease cortisol - get your nails done, walk in nature, get a massage, have sex with your partner, cuddle your pet, draw, listen to music, rest in the jacuzzi like a piece of carrot in a soup....everything that relaxes you and get plenty of it.
  

[*]
My diet had the biggest impact - I implore you to start this, prep your body for NBE.
Now I even feel more ready and committed to start a programme because I feel better mentally. 

Do not underestimate the fact that your hormones affect your mood and state of mind and therefore your behaviour and therefore your personality.


Please let me know if you have any questions or want the details of my test - i will soon start NBE again and will post a diary here but even if it doesn't work I feel great and much more confident !

xx, NLH

[Bustyprincess]

Hi Jakay, 

I wouldn't take spironolactone for PCOS, metformin is a better choice. Metformin also inhibits DHT, the strongest androgen. Spiro reduces progesterone and has some side effects, trans girls don't really care taking it. In fact there's up to a 70% incidence of MTF seeking breast augmentation after long term use of spiro. 

We need that progesterone plus estradiol and then inhibit androgens in breast tissue in order for breast growth to happen.

Testosterone isn't all bad for women...unless you have too much of it. Testosterone stimulates the libido in females' brains. 

 I don't think having PCOS means it has to be a lifelong battle. It's reported that 88% of women with PCOS are related to insulin resistance (IR), and of the 12% it'll be from adrenal issues.  And this is where metformin comes in. Metformin lowers the insulin response (or insulin resistance), meaning lowering blood glucose.  But let's back things up for a minute and start with stomach acid. See if the PCOS dysfunction can be controlled it needs to start with inhibiting stomach gastrin.  Metformin has side effects of nausea, diarrhoea, flatulence, bloating, anorexia, metallic taste and abdominal pain, so ask for the ER (extended release, it's much easier on the digestive system). Metformin stimulates AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) and is also referred to as the master regulator of energy homeostasis. This AMPK in Metformin increases longevity, which is cool right?. I mean who doesn't want to look younger.

Role of metformin in the management of polycystic ovary syndrome https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...o=0.602410

I refer to metformin here because of its action, lowering insulin.  Reducing inflammation can start in the mitochondria, which is its place of origin...aka-Mitochondrial Dysfunction

Mitochondrial Dysfunction and Damage Associated Molecular Patterns (DAMPs) in Chronic Inflammatory Diseases https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5988941/

I posted information regarding how inhibiting stomach gastrin helps breast growth, but the information on inhibiting gastrin follows the same hypothesis of treating PCOS by inhibiting gastrin https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=22417&pid=207918&highlight=inflammation#pid207918 Good luck. L. 

Ok,

After many years of being unsuccessful, I finally understood how my body works.
and with the help of Lotus who hinted to me that I might have PCOS after I posted my blood test.  (High prolactin and cortisol + low progesterone)
I researched a lot and put NBE on pause.

I think I will try NBE again, but in any case I feel much better now that I made all these adjustments in my life:

• PCOS is usually characterised by - but not only -  high androgens (testosterone) ====> But we know that testosterone prevents NBE
  
  
  
  
• PCOS women tend to have low Vitamin D3 levels =====> But we know that Vitamin D3 helps with the production of IGF-1 (from the Growth Hormone family which is required for NBE)
  
  
  
• PCOS women tend to have Insulin resistance (the body pumps more insulin because you are not sensitive to it) and we know that insulin act as a seesaw with Growth hormone (when Insulin in high/GH is low) ====> But you need Growth Hormone for NBE
  
  
  
• PCOS women suffer more from anxiety and depression (can cause stress and increase cortisol) 
  
  
  
• We know that high cortisol deplete your progesterone level ======> But you need Progesterone for NBE
  

[*]

So PCOS women - I am excited to announce that I did manage to reverse my PCOS with diet - I did the test and I nearly halved my testosterone levels and Increased by 1/3 my Vitamin D3 levels:

What I did, please note that this is not an NBE programme, but this helped me to feel 1 million times healthier, balanced my hormones and gave me a good starting point for NBE:

• Supplement with Vitamin D3 spray, I use this: http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/betteryou-dlux-3000-vitamin-d-oral-spray-60012895?skuid=012895&&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKEAiAz4XFBRCW87vj6-28uFMSJAAHeGZb6X7XB-lyLNwNPCp9JClGvhU7CDkK70xv_jGjfFqJpRoCkXXw_wcB
  
  
  
• I take 500mg of sea Magnesium before bed (muscle relaxant, will improve the quality of your sleep which will boost GH production
  
  
  
• Take Vitamin C for my adrenal and help Cortisol production (no need to steal from the progesterone no more)
  
  
  
• Changed my diet: Low carbs I have 1 slice of wholemeal toast in the morning with eggs and for the the other meals veggies + protein and nuts for snacks (the first 3 days will be hard but if you accept it and go over them you will no longer have cravings)
  
  
  
• I avoid snacking as much as possible (Remember, high insulin - which is produced as soon as you eat means low Growth Hormone!)
  
  
  
• Relax Relax Relax to decrease cortisol - get your nails done, walk in nature, get a massage, have sex with your partner, cuddle your pet, draw, listen to music, rest in the jacuzzi like a piece of carrot in a soup....everything that relaxes you and get plenty of it.
  

[*]
My diet had the biggest impact - I implore you to start this, prep your body for NBE.
Now I even feel more ready and committed to start a programme because I feel better mentally. 

Do not underestimate the fact that your hormones affect your mood and state of mind and therefore your behaviour and therefore your personality.


Please let me know if you have any questions or want the details of my test - i will soon start NBE again and will post a diary here but even if it doesn't work I feel great and much more confident !

xx, NLH

As a transwoman I completely reject what you are saying with evidence that I had significant breast growth on bio progesterone, bio estrogen and spiro when I needed it, spiro does NOT reduce progesterone, as I said my endocrinologist was in the field for 30 years he knows what he is talking about and why would he give his patients spiro along with progesterone and estrogen if it was completely counter productive lmao and if it affected breast growth smh.  " alt="" title="">

I dont know where or why you think you can state "infact 70% of trans girls" etc sounds like absolute hearsay with no actual data and as a transgirl who actually has experience with spiro pretty sure I can counter your argument. Also progesterone is also key in libido arguments hence why many post operative transwomen take it for sex drive since it is the female sex hormone without it and just estrogen post operative transwomen tend to lack that drive. Spiro blocks both kinds of T including DHT. I have been on hrt proper hrt not the synthetic kind for just under 10 years

[Lotus]

My apologies jakay.


Calm yourself, I prefer not to hijack someone's thread, but since you opened the door I'll respond and I will get this conversation split into a new thread. You're not the only trans woman here, as I am too, most are at Breastnexum. I've been on NBE for 3 years and developed a D-cup, then went on HRT for 4 years and am a DDD-cup now. I attached a recent photo where we were discussing how well estrogen cream helps with nipple projection. 





I see you've had breast augmentation, were you taking spiro.  I'm glad your doctor prescribed progesterone. Spironolactone isn't in a trans woman's best interest. Go to Reddit and look up Dr. Will Powers and read his cutting edge treatment plan, it doesn't include spiro. I used spironolactone and it wasn't for me.



Spironolactone 



Spironolactone is not very selective against other steroid receptors such as AR and PR. In particular, its anti-progesterone and anti-androgen properties lead to unwanted side effects such as gynecomastia, breast pain, menstrual irregularities, and impotence, thus limiting its use [2,11]. 



https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/che...onolactone



The Case Against Spironolactone



https://moderntranshormones.com/2018/01/...nolactone/



Spironolactone, an antiandrogen commonly used by trans women in the United States, has been associated with a greater likelihood of seeking breast augmentation.



https://genderanalysis.net/resources/stu...velopment/


Hormonal Treatment of Transgender Women with Oral Estradiol



Spironolactone did not aid testosterone suppression and seemed to impair achievement of goal serum 17-β estradiol levels.



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29756046/


Predictive markers for mammoplasty and a comparison of side effect profiles in transwomen taking various hormonal regimens



L J Seal et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2012 Dec.




Context: Breast development in transwomen is an important issue, affecting general psychological functioning. Current hormonal therapies are imperfect, with 60% of patients requesting mammoplasty.



Interventions: Interventions included the following: 1) comparing the effects on trans women's requests for mammoplasty of estrogen valerate, ethinylestradiol, and conjugated equine estrogen (CEE) hormone treatments; and 2) comparing the effects of GnRH analogs and androgen antagonists.

Objective: The objective of the study was to identify which hormone regimen is associated with the greatest subsequent request for augmentation mammoplasty.


Design: The study was a controlled, retrospective case audit.


Setting: The study was conducted at a single-center National Health Service tertiary care unit.



Patients: Patients were eligible for breast augmentation after 2 yr of estrogen treatment, were Tanner IV or higher breast development, and reported psychological distress due to small breasts. One hundred sixty-five subjects and 165 age-matched controls were identified.


Outcome measure: The outcome measure was a mammoplasty request.



Results: There were significantly more self-medicating individuals than controls in the mammoplasty group (11.5 vs. 6%, P < 0.05). The type of estrogen use did not affect the outcome. Compared with other antiandrogens, spironolactone use was significantly higher in those requesting mammoplasty (4.8 vs. 1.8%, P = 0.002). Thromboembolism occurred in 1.2% of individuals, more frequently in those treated with CEE than in those treated with either estrogen valerate or ethinylestradiol (4.4 vs. 0.6 vs. 0.7%, P = 0.026). Depression was noted in approximately 30% of individuals.


Conclusions: Self-medication with estrogen is significantly more likely to result in a later request for mammoplasty than is treatment prescribed by licensed practitioners. Previous spironolactone use is more common in those requesting mammoplasty. CEE treatment is associated with a higher incidence of thromboembolism than treatment with other estrogen types.

[Bustyprincess]

My apologies jakay.

Calm yourself, I prefer not to hijack someone's thread, but since you opened the door I'll respond and I will get this conversation split into a new thread. You're not the only trans woman here, as I am too, most are at Breastnexum. I've been on NBE for 3 years and developed a D-cup, then went on HRT for 4 years and am a DDD-cup now. I attached a recent photo where we were discussing how well estrogen cream helps with nipple projection. 

Yup, that's me. Maybe this pic isn't a great comparison photo, but it'll do for now.

I see you've had breast augmentation, were you taking spiro.  I'm glad your doctor prescribed progesterone. Spironolactone isn't in a trans woman's best interest. Go to Reddit and look up Dr. Will Powers and read his cutting edge treatment plan, it doesn't include spiro. I used spironolactone and it wasn't for me.

Spironolactone 
Spironolactone is not very selective against other steroid receptors such as AR and PR. In particular, its anti-progesterone and anti-androgen properties lead to unwanted side effects such as gynecomastia, breast pain, menstrual irregularities, and impotence, thus limiting its use [2,11]. 
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/che...onolactone

The Case Against Spironolactone
https://moderntranshormones.com/2018/01/...nolactone/

Spironolactone, an antiandrogen commonly used by trans women in the United States, has been associated with a greater likelihood of seeking breast augmentation.
https://genderanalysis.net/resources/stu...velopment/

Hormonal Treatment of Transgender Women with Oral Estradiol
Spironolactone did not aid testosterone suppression and seemed to impair achievement of goal serum 17-β estradiol levels.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29756046/

Predictive markers for mammoplasty and a comparison of side effect profiles in transwomen taking various hormonal regimens
L J Seal et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2012 Dec.
Abstract

Context: Breast development in transwomen is an important issue, affecting general psychological functioning. Current hormonal therapies are imperfect, with 60% of patients requesting mammoplasty.

Interventions: Interventions included the following: 1) comparing the effects on trans women's requests for mammoplasty of estrogen valerate, ethinylestradiol, and conjugated equine estrogen (CEE) hormone treatments; and 2) comparing the effects of GnRH analogs and androgen antagonists.

Objective: The objective of the study was to identify which hormone regimen is associated with the greatest subsequent request for augmentation mammoplasty.

Design: The study was a controlled, retrospective case audit.

Setting: The study was conducted at a single-center National Health Service tertiary care unit.

Patients: Patients were eligible for breast augmentation after 2 yr of estrogen treatment, were Tanner IV or higher breast development, and reported psychological distress due to small breasts. One hundred sixty-five subjects and 165 age-matched controls were identified.

Outcome measure: The outcome measure was a mammoplasty request.

Results: There were significantly more self-medicating individuals than controls in the mammoplasty group (11.5 vs. 6%, P < 0.05). The type of estrogen use did not affect the outcome. Compared with other antiandrogens, spironolactone use was significantly higher in those requesting mammoplasty (4.8 vs. 1.8%, P = 0.002). Thromboembolism occurred in 1.2% of individuals, more frequently in those treated with CEE than in those treated with either estrogen valerate or ethinylestradiol (4.4 vs. 0.6 vs. 0.7%, P = 0.026). Depression was noted in approximately 30% of individuals.

Conclusions: Self-medication with estrogen is significantly more likely to result in a later request for mammoplasty than is treatment prescribed by licensed practitioners. Previous spironolactone use is more common in those requesting mammoplasty. CEE treatment is associated with a higher incidence of thromboembolism than treatment with other estrogen types.

My apologies too Jakay dont let someones mere opinion scare you off something that an actual dr has suggested for you and could really help you in many ways! X Im really not interested in debating since I completely disagree with you I got a BA years back purely for the fact I wanted bigger right away not because I needed it and then grew further to a 36E cup with nbe in a matter of months, just because one dr says something doesnt mean its true for all especially when another that is 30 years in the business of endocrinology states something else, the trans "crew" that lurk over on reddit tend to state many untrue things as fact too so I tend not to indulge in the delusions over there so forgive me if I have not been "up to date" on what other trans women state as fact over on reddit its a pretty toxic place from what Ive seen and doesnt represent our community well imo. Also Im 2 years+ post op so I have not used spiro in a long time so this whole convo is really quite unrelatable to my current situation. Also my T levels were 0.01 when on spiro maybe its because I started everything so young and blocked puberty but yeh again thats proof your studies arent true for everyone I get if you started much later in life though since you would have unfortunately had the negative permanent effects of male puberty. Anyways goodluck with everything x