[surferjoe2007]

Hi Joe. I hope you don’t mind me posting this question here. I think it’s somewhat relevant to this thread.

I know that oral estrogen supplementation lowers Igf-1 production. Do you know if any phytoestrogens have ever been shown or suspected to do the same? Especially pueraria mirifica? How much do you think circulating igf-1 really matters for breast growth (as opposed to local production)? I’m asking because I saw a reddit post about igf-1 by an endo that specializes in trans hrt. He said that he experimented with giving igf-1 to some of his patients, but he felt that it didn’t improve breast growth at all. I know you had another thread about women that injected igf-1 into their breasts. The only link you posted is broken, or maybe that post was removed from their forum. Do you have any links to reports of women doing this? If you don’t feel comfortable posting it here, please pm me. I’m asking this because, if the results of such an extreme method are less than stellar, that would be a very strong indication that focusing on igf-1 production is misguided. I’ve suspected for a long time that low igf-1 might be one of the main reasons my other nbe attempts failed, but now I’m not so sure. It would be nice to know whether or not I’m barking up the wrong tree.

One more question, lol. I know I already asked about fenugreek/shatavari saponins, but I read some things that I’d like to ask you about. I used to see people claiming that fenugreek raises the ceiling of the estrogen negative feedback loop, and that’s supposedly it’s main mechanism of action. I think I remember Wahaika being one of the main proponents of this theory, but it was ages ago, so I’m not sure. Would you say you agree with that idea? If so, why?

Sorry for bothering you again. Hopefully you at least find this interesting to think about.

EDIT: I just saw a study claiming that supplementing with “weak” phytoestrogens, like the ones in soy and flax, actually increases igf-1. Of course that doesn’t mean that stronger phytoestrogens are the same. I’m still pretty confused.

Hi sorry I didn’t notice this sooner.  I don’t know if estrogen lowers overall igf-1 or not.  I do know it triggers the release of local igf-1 at the breasts.  I just happened to be reading recently that both local igf-1 and circulating igf-1 can be helpful for breast growth, and circulating igf-1 can in fact make up for a lack of local igf-1 release.  For anyone who has trouble growing I suggest nutrition such as the foods in my signature.  Get your body working right and it can sort itself out.  That said, trying to increase igf-1 too wouldn’t hurt to try.  Yeah there is very little info on how much igf-1 helps or doesn’t help breast growth in humans, or how much is necessary.  And since there are many factors involved it may not woro at all at times just like estrogen alone may not always work.  I found one or maybe a couple animal studies and just that one single human example.  It’s definitely involved, but I don’t know if it’s an amplifier, bottleneck, requires a little or required a lot.  In the animal study an extremely large and inadvisable amount of IGF-1 and GH caused extreme mammary growth.  It was around the equivalent of going from B cup to J cup.  Either IGF-1 or GH alone had a partial effect too, with GH causing a little more than half of the growth.  DHEA may be a simple and cheap zero or near zero risk way to boost igf-1 a small amount, and probably other hormones too.  So it doesn’t hurt to try DHEA at least.  Mk-677 increases both igf-1 and GH btw, but it has legal issues and other minor issues.  Since fenugreek increases appetite and therefore ghrelin it probably increases both igf-1 and GH too, and with less issues.

I’m not sure exactly how fenugreek works but I know it increases the typical hormones and/or the effects of those hormones of the person using them and it works on a variety of hormones.  So estrogen and so on in women (but not men), testosterone and so on in men (but not women), and prolactin in nursing women (but not others).  And insulin, igf-1, gh, ghrelin, mood boosting compounds, etc. in everyone.  It might be by unregulating their production or increasing sensitivity to them or both, but I’m not sure.  At minimum it unregulates production of some.

[surferjoe2007]

So just came by to make a minor update for how nbe hormones work after some reading including some studies.

Estrogen + progesterone + igf-1 + GH - testosterone => Boobs.  But there are some other factors too.
Estrogen + testosterone + igf-1 + GH => Butt and thighs.  Also has other factors.  Exercise and muscle also play a role in butt size.  Yet for some reason saw palmetto extract increases butt and thigh size instead of decreasing it.  Maybe DHT is different from other testosterone, or maybe SPE also has other effects.  While many women report growth from SPE and many men show improvement against high DHT symptoms, there’s lots of contradictory information on how exactly it accomplishes this.  I was also reading about how reishi may decrease DHT yet increase other testosterone and related effects.  Though a lot of that is probably because less T is converted to DHT.  DHT is stronger than regular T so overall it’s a decrease, but regular T has certain effects that DHT doesn’t and vis versa.  Generally DHT is the “bad” testosterone but a little is necessary for certain body functions.

So a pear shape might not only mean low progesterone.  It might also mean high testosterone or both.

[pumpitup2021]

hi,

got a silly question here do we just put progesterone cream on our breast ? or need to massage with it??

[Iceedragons]

So just came by to make a minor update for how nbe hormones work after some reading including some studies.

Estrogen + progesterone + igf-1 + GH - testosterone => Boobs.  But there are some other factors too.
Estrogen + testosterone + igf-1 + GH => Butt and thighs.  Also has other factors.  Exercise and muscle also play a role in butt size.  Yet for some reason saw palmetto extract increases butt and thigh size instead of decreasing it.  Maybe DHT is different from other testosterone, or maybe SPE also has other effects.  While many women report growth from SPE and many men show improvement against high DHT symptoms, there’s lots of contradictory information on how exactly it accomplishes this.  I was also reading about how reishi may decrease DHT yet increase other testosterone and related effects.  Though a lot of that is probably because less T is converted to DHT.  DHT is stronger than regular T so overall it’s a decrease, but regular T has certain effects that DHT doesn’t and vis versa.  Generally DHT is the “bad” testosterone but a little is necessary for certain body functions.

So a pear shape might not only mean low progesterone.  It might also mean high testosterone or both.

I've been a lurker for a while, but I really enjoy reading your information. Beyond helpful!

I have high testosterone and low progesterone and have the pear body type. Being on progesterone birth control alone has increased my bust size, which has caused me to look into NBE.

[surferjoe2007]

hi,

got a silly question here do we just put progesterone cream on our breast ? or need to massage with it??

You can put it anywhere it says on the label, even your wrists iirc, and it will circulate everywhere.  No need to massage it but massage can be helpful regardless of what you apply.

Iceedragons, a progesterone IUD is usually much stronger than cream.  As it tends to be a synthetic progestin with side effects I would only use it for the purpose of birth control.  But if you’re already on one for that reason it’s something to consider.  Whether that means you have enough or it’s going so well that you want a little bit more via a cream you may have to guess and test.  Or it may be so much that it’s time to slowly add in estrogen such as pueraria mirifica.

[Rinabeth18]

So this program that I’m undergoing isn’t completely natural, but I followed a lot of your advice when figuring out what my program will consist of. My dermatologist is prescribing me spironolactone for my hormonal acne, so that will be my testosterone blocker, I am on the hormonal IUD which is where my progesterone comes from (I’m also assuming that I already have quite a bit of progesterone already since my breasts are currently a D cup, but they do go down to a C cup once I lose weight). I’m going to be eating a Mediterranean Diet to aid in Hormone Balancing. And for my estrogen, I am either going to pay for Biote or take PM (or both). Then I will be working out my chest lifting weights 2-3 days a week and drink bone broth for Collagen. I’m not sure if I will pump or do breast massage yet. Not only do I want breast growth, but I’m also hoping that with this program, my fat will redistribute to my butt, hips and thighs. I have an android body shape (an Apple) which usually means I have higher amounts of testosterone. Plus I have excess amounts of hair where women don’t normally get hair, balding, and very bad hormonal acne all over. I’m hoping to remedy all these things by doing this program. Thank you for making this post or else I wouldn’t have known what I needed!

[SkarlyW]

This is by far one of my favorite threads! Is so complete, and to the point. I'd add some adaptogens too! Since cortisol is an antagonist of HGH somo adaptogens caps would be benefical. This way the saponins will enhace HGH instead of cortisol wich is anti NBE. Also I think HGH is one of the major factor on macromastia (huge boobs) I'm dying to try your method but first I'll have to get proper nutrition before any other NBE attempt. Thanks for such an useful guide SurferJoe2007!

[SkarlyW]

So just came by to make a minor update for how nbe hormones work after some reading including some studies.

Estrogen + progesterone + igf-1 + GH - testosterone => Boobs.  But there are some other factors too.
Estrogen + testosterone + igf-1 + GH => Butt and thighs.  Also has other factors.  Exercise and muscle also play a role in butt size.  Yet for some reason saw palmetto extract increases butt and thigh size instead of decreasing it.  Maybe DHT is different from other testosterone, or maybe SPE also has other effects.  While many women report growth from SPE and many men show improvement against high DHT symptoms, there’s lots of contradictory information on how exactly it accomplishes this.  I was also reading about how reishi may decrease DHT yet increase other testosterone and related effects.  Though a lot of that is probably because less T is converted to DHT.  DHT is stronger than regular T so overall it’s a decrease, but regular T has certain effects that DHT doesn’t and vis versa.  Generally DHT is the “bad” testosterone but a little is necessary for certain body functions.

So a pear shape might not only mean low progesterone.  It might also mean high testosterone or both.

Viewing this in a highly simplistic way I think Saw Palmeto kinda leads to strogen dominance since DHT blockers would turn testosterone to estrogen hence bigger butt and thighs

[bouncybabe]

Overview
My current job is paying well and I'm a bit short on time so I've decided to step away from putting a product on ebay. Plus what I have is simple and easy to get elsewhere, albeit at a higher price. I have one last jar listed on ebay.

So now this is what this post is for, a program that is simple, easy and cheap to do while giving the most results for that effort. It is based on basic biology and what I have seen work well for many women. I provide example solutions for each goal, but I believe every program must address these goals whether you use my solutions or come up with your own.

How Breasts Normally Grow
Normal, natural breast growth comes primarily from estrogen and progesterone while not having too much testosterone. Other lesser factors include prolactin, human growth hormone, insulin, IGF and thyroid hormone. However most women who are naturally huge are this way because they are more sensitive to these hormones rather than having high hormone levels. This will be a key point later.

Breasts are made of fat, connective tissue and milk ducts. A wide variety of nutrients are also essential for breast growth, nearly every nutrient imaginable. While natural sizes may vary I don't believe anyone is naturally below an A cup. It makes no biological sense. More likely being flat comes from a hormone imbalance or some kind of nutritional deficiency.

Proper Nutrition
That brings me to the first and most important part of an NBE program: proper nutrition. If you are in good health and already have some breast size to work with this step is less important. But even then nutrition can only help not hurt, and good nutrition is good for your health in general. If you are flat chested, underweight or have a hormonal imbalance this should be the first step or nothing else may work. You can't make a house without tools and wood (nutrition), no matter how much you yell at the workers (hormones).

I have put together some foods that provide complete nutrition and you may verify this by looking them up at the USDA nutrient database: http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search/list
Mix equal parts spirulina powder, brewer's yeast powder and rice bran. Blend 1/4 cup in a glass of juice with a blender, twice a day. When first starting use only a spoonful, then gradually increase to the full amount as you get used to it. Also consume once a day 2 tsp. fish oil, 1/4 cup sunflower seeds, and 1 white button mushroom, or any other mushroom. Have a dish of oysters every 1-2 weeks. A simple recipe is 4 oz oysters, 1/8 cup white wine, 1 clove minced garlic, heat until garlic is tender. Get a kelp seasoning shaker or iodized salt. Get a little bit of a tan or else take a 2,000 i.u. vitamin D supplement.

Since breasts contain a great deal of fat and connective tissue, having a healthy weight is also important. As are healthy fats which are already included above. Taking 3,000 mg MSM is helpful to build connective tissue because the sulfur cross-links protein into hard rubbery connective tissue for size, support, lift and springiness.

Herbs
You don't need 20 herbs for a good NBE program. The simplest solution is to get one for each hormone.

Hormone Sensitivity: As I pointed out above this is the #1 factor for large breasts. Herbs that promote hormone sensitivity also tend to promote hormonal balance rather than potentially imbalancing hormones. They show miniscule or no toxicity in studies even at extreme amounts and in fact have many health benefits. Herbs in this category are those that contain steroidal saponins including fenugreek, wild yam, shatavari and goat's rue. Typical amounts used in programs, studies and traditional recommendations are about 2,000 to 25,000 mg, though 6,000 mg and up is better. This is key to remember as not all herbs are the same. 500 mg may be high for one and 100,000 mg may be low for another. The simplest solution I've found here is to find a 50% saponin extract and take 300-1200 mg. You can find them for fenugreek and shatavari. Shatavari is more expensive but it doesn't give you a maple smell. Because it is such a concentrated extract that's all you need. Again not all herbs are the same and extracts can be more potent than whole herbs, depending on the strength of the extract. Be sure it says "##% saponins" so you know it's strong, or more herb may be required. While more is not necessarily more effective for all herbs, it is for saponins. And unlike herbs that have a direct hormonal effect you cannot really imbalance yourself with these herbs because they merely increase the response to your existing hormones. So work up to 900-1200 mg as soon as you can.

While generally tolerable and healthy, there are two common problems with saponin herbs. Due to the high amount some women may get an upset stomach. A 50% saponin extract avoids this and it's more convenient since it only takes 1-4 capsules. Since they also increase sensitivity to the hormone insulin, hypoglycemics may not tolerate them well even at a lower amount. Again if you get good nutrition then health problems like this are unlikely to be an obstacle.

Estrogen: There are a wide variety of herbs for estrogen but they all work nearly the same way so I say go with the most bang for the buck, pueraria mirifica. There isn't much difference between taking a small amount of a potent phytoestrogen or a large amount of a weak phytoestrogen. There are in fact many menopausal studies using 25-50 mg pueraria mirifica. And up to 100 mg it does not need to be cycled, just as the weaker herbs don't need to be cycled. Again not all herbs are the same and you shouldn't jump straight to 1,000 mg PM as if it was no big deal or as if it were the same as 1,000 mg of any other herb. I have seen hormonal issues time and again in these forums from doing this, whereas those taking even 2 tablespoons of fenugreek (or a little bit of a potent extract) are often without complaints even after a long period of time. And their programs tend to also have good success. So in my opinion use only 50-100 mg pueraria mirifica, if any, and use more only if you know you have low estrogen or if you carefully balance it out with progesterone cream. But this is a guessing game and it is better to try a large amount of a saponin before a large amount of a phytoestrogen. Those who area already top heavy tend to have high progesterone and so respond better to pueraria mirifica than others. Whereas those who are flat and bottom heavy don't respond that well. Even then a hormone test is the only way to be sure. Or you may accidentally inhibit NBE and cause hormonal problems with PM if you are not careful.

Progesterone: There are many herbs that are called phytoprogestins, but I have never found a single one that strongly acts like progesterone. There are some herbs such as vitex or saponins that may indirectly raise progesterone slighty or increase sensitivity to progesterone (and to other hormones). Your only serious option here is progesterone cream. I have read about many people try to balance out pueraria mirifica with vitex or fenugreek and it only leads to estrogen dominance. Again without careful testing you can only guess and more might hurt instead of help. So I suggest 1/8 tsp. once a day, if any. If you get a hormone test and find estrogen dominance then use more. Or many who are bottom heavy and flat-chested response very well to larger amounts of progesterone cream. For every story of a large chested girl rapidly getting larger with pueraria mirifica alone, I read one of a flat chested girl rapidly getting C cups on progesterone cream alone. Not on these forums unfortunately; but elsewhere. This is a bad trend because many users keep using more and more PM and make NBE worse not better. But again a hormone test is the only way to be sure. Or you may accidentally inhibit NBE and cause hormonal problems with PC if you are not careful.

Also consider the estrogen in your birth control pill, if any. Even combination bcp is primarily estrogen. Or consider the progestin in all progestin birth control. Whatever it has is probably a lot compared to supplements, even on a low dose.

I see too many forum girls use PM "for NBE" and something minor to try to keep their hormone balance barely under control in spite of the PM. The PM is much stronger than the something else, hormone imbalance gets worse and this is anti-NBE not pro-NBE. Hormone balance and NBE are not two conflicting goals; they are the same goal. If anything someone estrogen dominant should be doing all PC and zero PM not only for balance but also for NBE. Then continue with lots of PC and add in a little PM. Not lots of PM and a little PC. Just because PM was superb for NBE for someone with different hormones doesn't mean it will be with your hormones. For you it may have the opposite effect and fight against NBE. And vis versa. PC may halt NBE for some while PM alone may be superb for them. Then likewise after a while they should add little PC to their PM.

Testosterone: There are many herbs that lower testosterone. Because this is a major goal of many transgender people, there is far more information in that section than I know. But I suggest 1 320 mg capsule of saw palmetto extract because it is simple and concentrated. And because it lowers DHT rather than lowering all testosterone. DHT is the testosterone responsible for acne, facial hair and so on. Plus in women if testosterone does not become DHT then it may become estrogen instead. Whereas substances that lower all testosterone production may also lower estrogen, because estrogen is made from testosterone. I also suggest saw palmetto extract because it has a long history in NBE programs and has several long term large participant human studies confirming its safety. In rare cases you may lower testosterone too much and lose your libido, in which case you should not use saw palmetto extract or anything that lowers testosterone. Besides libido, a small amount of testosterone is important for good health in women. Again do not confuse saw palmetto extract with saw palmetto. 320 mg saw palmetto extract is much more than 320 mg saw palmetto. Likewise it must be around 90% fatty acids or you need more, but unlike saponin extracts this high concentration is common and you don't need to search as hard to find a strong extract.

Prolactin, human growth hormone, insulin, IGF, etc.: Since these are minor I will not cover these. Plus saponins may increase sensitivity to these enough that providing them directly is not necessary. But if you wish to research and find supplements for these it may help a little.

Pectoral Muscle
Building pectoral muscles provides lift. And it provides muscle mass which of course does not sag. This and connective tissue provide perkiness. With enough muscle bulk you can even go up a cup size. Weight with few reps provides more bulk than unweighted exercises with many reps. One simple way is to bench press. 3 sets, 10 repetitions per set. 3 days a week, resting every other day. Though I am sure there are exercise gurus who can provide better pectoral muscle programs if you want to get serious.

Massage, Pumping
Honestly I never understood the motivation behind massaging and pumping because they are so time consuming. Especially whenever I am managing my time and measuring the hours now. For the most part I will omit them even though they do work. However massage benefits those experiencing rapid growth because it relieves soreness and because a good moisturizer or oil prevents stretch marks. It may also be good for breast health.


Summary
The key components of the example program are:
1. Nutritional mix (see above).
2. 3,000 mg MSM.
3. 300-1200 mg 50% saponin fenugreek or shatavari extract. Ramp up after a couple weeks or so.
4. 50-100 mg pueraria mirifica (optional). Cycling is not necessary. Use more if already top heavy, or if carefully balanced with progesterone (both your tested levels and progesterone cream). If you use more then you usually cycle it.
5. 1/8 tsp progesterone cream or 500 mg vitex (optional). Cycling is not necessary. Use more PC (and not vitex) if already bottom heavy, or if carefully balanced with estrogen (both your tested levels and a phytoestrogen such as pueraria mirifica). If you use more then you usually cycle it.
6. 1 320 mg capsule saw palmetto extract. Omit if libido disappears or if it seems unnecessary.
7. Bench press. Optional, but if you already go to the gym you may as well because it is quick. 3 sets, 10 repetitions per set. 3 days a week, resting every other day.
8. If sore or getting rapid results, massage with a moisturizer or oil.

There, powerful, simple, cheap, good for you, doesn't take much time, doesn't fill a cabinet full of bottles and doesn't usually cause uncomfortable issues. Since most of these are also beneficial for other aspects of health and aren't labeled as breast enhancement, they also don't embarrass you if found. Except PM which is easy to conceal. The nutrition may seem bulkier and more expensive, but because it takes the place of other food the net effect on groceries is not much. And those in good health with at least large A cups or larger don't strictly need it, though it is always nice.

Perhaps one day I will dig through my notes and websites for the references but again my time is limited. Pubmed.gov is nice for finding studies, as is searching for personal experiences in various forums and blogs including this forum. They are valuable because they are less likely to be biased with little to gain from writing them. "Product reviews" and product descriptions should be confirmed with other more reliable sources of information.

I hope this was beneficial to everyone and good luck.

Is it okay to take PM on your menstrual cycle? I have heard it can mess with it. Also can you take fenugreek with PM? I don’t want to become estrogen dominant

[SkarlyW]

PROPER NUTRITION is definitely an important building block for NBE!

I starded NBE at 30 inches and 88lb 

I'm currently at 33 inches by gaining 16lb.