[WEENE]

Hi y'all <3

I was wondering the next questions, let's see if we can figure em out together xD

 1- Anti-Androgens must be taken during all the menstrual cycle or just during follicular phase?

2- I know estrogen must be taken during luteal phase, preferably from day 14 to 24. But, it's best to take one Estrogenic herb (i.e Pueraria) in a moderate dose (ex: 250mg) or best take it at lower dose (Pueraria 100mg) along with another estrogenic herb (Fenugreek, for example)??

3- Which source of progesterone is best to add-on? Progesterone cream may work, using it on luteal phase?

4- Would be possible to combine oral and topical intake, keeping in mind the different phases (menses, follicular, luteal...) we get through?

xoxo and stay safe!

EDIT: The 2nd question I guess is a big no for PCOS' girls  " alt="" title=""> I bet we must pick one only xD

1.- I'd say antiandrogens/aromatase should be taken only during follicular. Since they are naturally higher on luteal an there's no need to increase them unles you want to end up with E dominace. But only if you're taking another E sup

2.- I'd go only for PM, it has way more benefits as an estrogenic agent. Also I wouldn't take Fenugreek since is pro PDE. (Wich inhibits cAMP)

3.- PC is ok but you can also take Progesterine pills just don't over do it.... Max half a 100mg pill and only if you have low levels of it.

4.-Sure! I see no problem doing this

[WEENE]

Hey sweet,

What is the reason why you take estrogenic herbs during lutheal phase?

In lutheal phase you’re progesterone dominant, sooo...too much estrogens means less progestinic effect and estrogen dominance, do u agree with me?

If u want to use estrogenic herbs you should take weak phytoestrogens like FG or borage oil I guess... or at least less than 100mg PM.

No, I don't agree with you neither with Lotus about this.

Theorically during luteal phase the mix of high progesteron and estrogen makes breast grow (that's why she said E is better during luteal)  BUT in the late luteal all those cells go back to their normal by apotosis... so... IMHO you should take Estrogen during late lutheal and early follicular to prevent that celular death and keep the growth. It'b de like creating a mini pregnancy/puberty wich is what we need for breast growth.

High Estrogen and Ifg-1 taking E on late luteal early Follicular you prevent the E levels to drop

That's why all those japanese gurls have succeded even though they took E on follicular.

Since they take high doses of E, during luteal they'll have higher levels than usual, so by the time it is supposed to drop, levels are still high. At least high enough to get growth. Also the succesful japanese programs take pig placenta wich is highly biocompatible with the human body (and btw that's the reason why people who use sheep placenta doesn't get as good results as the J girls)

So placenta raises not only Progesterone, but also, Estrogen, Prolactin and has lots of Growth Hormones too.

In short taking Estrogen on luteal or follicular can give you results, not for the timing, but because breast grow with high estrogen, ifg1,(principally) but also prolactin and progesterone are very important.

[SweetO]

Hi y'all <3

I was wondering the next questions, let's see if we can figure em out together xD

 1- Anti-Androgens must be taken during all the menstrual cycle or just during follicular phase?

2- I know estrogen must be taken during luteal phase, preferably from day 14 to 24. But, it's best to take one Estrogenic herb (i.e Pueraria) in a moderate dose (ex: 250mg) or best take it at lower dose (Pueraria 100mg) along with another estrogenic herb (Fenugreek, for example)??

3- Which source of progesterone is best to add-on? Progesterone cream may work, using it on luteal phase?

4- Would be possible to combine oral and topical intake, keeping in mind the different phases (menses, follicular, luteal...) we get through?

xoxo and stay safe!

EDIT: The 2nd question I guess is a big no for PCOS' girls  " alt="" title=""> I bet we must pick one only xD

1.- I'd say antiandrogens/aromatase should be taken only during follicular. Since they are naturally higher on luteal an there's no need to increase them unles you want to end up with E dominace. But only if you're taking another E sup

2.- I'd go only for PM, it has way more benefits as an estrogenic agent. Also I wouldn't take Fenugreek since is pro PDE. (Wich inhibits cAMP)

3.- PC is ok but you can also take Progesterine pills just don't over do it.... Max half a 100mg pill and only if you have low levels of it.

4.-Sure! I see no problem doing this

So sorry to answer you back now! I didn't see this post until now and I haven't had time tbh (if you don't know guys,  there's a volcano going on in Spain and my cousin got affected so I had to fly to the area and help him to figure out what to do. Very difficult times here, it sucks a lot...)

Thank you very much for your knowledge! I am going to stay away from FG then ^^

[Bustyprincess]

Hi y'all <3

I was wondering the next questions, let's see if we can figure em out together xD

 1- Anti-Androgens must be taken during all the menstrual cycle or just during follicular phase?

2- I know estrogen must be taken during luteal phase, preferably from day 14 to 24. But, it's best to take one Estrogenic herb (i.e Pueraria) in a moderate dose (ex: 250mg) or best take it at lower dose (Pueraria 100mg) along with another estrogenic herb (Fenugreek, for example)??

3- Which source of progesterone is best to add-on? Progesterone cream may work, using it on luteal phase?

4- Would be possible to combine oral and topical intake, keeping in mind the different phases (menses, follicular, luteal...) we get through?

xoxo and stay safe!

EDIT: The 2nd question I guess is a big no for PCOS' girls  " alt="" title=""> I bet we must pick one only xD

1.- I'd say antiandrogens/aromatase should be taken only during follicular. Since they are naturally higher on luteal an there's no need to increase them unles you want to end up with E dominace. But only if you're taking another E sup

2.- I'd go only for PM, it has way more benefits as an estrogenic agent. Also I wouldn't take Fenugreek since is pro PDE. (Wich inhibits cAMP)

3.- PC is ok but you can also take Progesterine pills just don't over do it.... Max half a 100mg pill and only if you have low levels of it.

4.-Sure! I see no problem doing this

So sorry to answer you back now! I didn't see this post until now and I haven't had time tbh (if you don't know guys,  there's a volcano going on in Spain and my cousin got affected so I had to fly to the area and help him to figure out what to do. Very difficult times here, it sucks a lot...)

Thank you very much for your knowledge! I am going to stay away from FG then ^^

I just saw on the news so scary Im so sorry you and your cousin are dealing with this, its scary and so sad seeing all the people having to leave their homes to most likely be hit by the lava, stay safe doll x

[WEENE]

Hi y'all <3

I was wondering the next questions, let's see if we can figure em out together xD

 1- Anti-Androgens must be taken during all the menstrual cycle or just during follicular phase?

2- I know estrogen must be taken during luteal phase, preferably from day 14 to 24. But, it's best to take one Estrogenic herb (i.e Pueraria) in a moderate dose (ex: 250mg) or best take it at lower dose (Pueraria 100mg) along with another estrogenic herb (Fenugreek, for example)??

3- Which source of progesterone is best to add-on? Progesterone cream may work, using it on luteal phase?

4- Would be possible to combine oral and topical intake, keeping in mind the different phases (menses, follicular, luteal...) we get through?

xoxo and stay safe!

EDIT: The 2nd question I guess is a big no for PCOS' girls  " alt="" title=""> I bet we must pick one only xD

1.- I'd say antiandrogens/aromatase should be taken only during follicular. Since they are naturally higher on luteal an there's no need to increase them unles you want to end up with E dominace. But only if you're taking another E sup

2.- I'd go only for PM, it has way more benefits as an estrogenic agent. Also I wouldn't take Fenugreek since is pro PDE. (Wich inhibits cAMP)

3.- PC is ok but you can also take Progesterine pills just don't over do it.... Max half a 100mg pill and only if you have low levels of it.

4.-Sure! I see no problem doing this

So sorry to answer you back now! I didn't see this post until now and I haven't had time tbh (if you don't know guys,  there's a volcano going on in Spain and my cousin got affected so I had to fly to the area and help him to figure out what to do. Very difficult times here, it sucks a lot...)

Thank you very much for your knowledge! I am going to stay away from FG then ^^

Ohhhh my... I'm so sorry for what you're going through! Be careful doll and take care! Hope everything gets better soon.Stay safe xo

[SweetO]

Hello my girls!

I am planning to grow at least 2 cm this year. Problem is, I need to keep up with body recomp (haven't lost a lot due these lock-up covid situations, dumb covid xD),  so probably I will continue with noogling while reshaping my body lol.

My plan is to noogle 2h daily January and February and then just one hour (lack of time) from M to F and weekends 3 hours in total. We'll see if I can make it happen, I think so, but sometimes life has other plans for you ! These last 10 weeks I have been working a lot and flying to the Canary Islands because of the Volcano there to help my family - so I have been VERY inconsistent.

So in short: Noogling yes BUT with a hormone program. I would like to try just with topicals and see what's up.

My daily supplements are:

- Zinc 15 mg - collagen & skin health

- Magnesium 400 mg - stress suport

- Glutamine 750 mg - I need it to prevent muscle soreness lol

- MSM 1500mg  - my joints love it, plus it's a must with NBE

- VitD (supplement)

Follicular phase:

- Antiandrogens. TOPICAL White Peony Liquid extract.

- Estrogens : Pueraria TOPICAL (just the last days)

Luteal phase: [until day 25]

- Progesterone cream TOPICAL

- Estrogens : Pueraria TOPICAL

Other things:

*Noogling

*SLEEP. Damn, this is my biggest challenge but SO effective for body recomp , NBE, and overall health.

*NUTRITION. Increasing protein slowly and adjusting my macros

* EXERCISE. January and February six days out of 7. March and the upcoming months, 5 or 6, it will depend on other factors but yes I am committed to it.

*STRESS MANAGEMENT. No sleeping well = more cortisol. More cortisol = less NBE and less body recomp. Period xD

[Stealth94]

Hey sweet,

What is the reason why you take estrogenic herbs during lutheal phase?

In lutheal phase you’re progesterone dominant, sooo...too much estrogens means less progestinic effect and estrogen dominance, do u agree with me?

If u want to use estrogenic herbs you should take weak phytoestrogens like FG or borage oil I guess... or at least less than 100mg PM.

No, I don't agree with you neither with Lotus about this.

Theorically during luteal phase the mix of high progesteron and estrogen makes breast grow (that's why she said E is better during luteal)  BUT in the late luteal all those cells go back to their normal by apotosis... so... IMHO you should take Estrogen during late lutheal and early follicular to prevent that celular death and keep the growth. It'b de like creating a mini pregnancy/puberty wich is what we need for breast growth.

High Estrogen and Ifg-1 taking E on late luteal early Follicular you prevent the E levels to drop

That's why all those japanese gurls have succeded even though they took E on follicular.

Since they take high doses of E, during luteal they'll have higher levels than usual, so by the time it is supposed to drop, levels are still high. At least high enough to get growth. Also the succesful japanese programs take pig placenta wich is highly biocompatible with the human body (and btw that's the reason why people who use sheep placenta doesn't get as good results as the J girls)

So placenta raises not only Progesterone, but also, Estrogen, Prolactin and has lots of Growth Hormones too.

In short taking Estrogen on luteal or follicular can give you results, not for the timing, but because breast grow with high estrogen, ifg1,(principally) but also prolactin and progesterone are very important.

What's your source for pig placenta?? I can't seem to find it anywhere

[Lotus]

Hi sweetheart, good to hear from you. I am currently on bo..can i combine pm with bo? Or will that be too much/ conflicting with each other?

Hugs for you Lotus!

Hi Hannah, 

I've missed you too. ? In the past year I've come across new information that should help cis-females in their pursuit for breast growth, and it will coordinate with menstrual cycles, but first let's talk about your question on BO.

Speaking from experience, when I combined PM & BO (2013) I nearly lost vision in my right eye requiring surgery to repair a retinal hemorrhage, it still bothers me today. I used Swanson's brand BO (now called Ovarian Glandular on Amazon.) IMHO a strong immune system is needed before starting BO. In 2013 (when I used BO) the going recommendations for BO was 16 pills per day of BO and 3,000 mg Pueraria Mirifica (PM), crazy huh?How much BO do you take Hannah?

I have no idea where the 16 pills of BO or  3,000mg PM a day needed for breast growth came from, certainly not found in scientific literature. Come to find out that the dosage of PM put some people in the hospital who developed DVT (deep vein thrombosis) and life long complications dealing with it.

This is an important question cis-females need to ask themselves..."will my BCP (birth control pills) comprise my NBE program" we can discuss this in the next post though.

As explained below, you can't be sure what hormones you're getting when using BO, is it more of an adaptogen?, or a precursor to testosterone or estrogen?....or just straight up progesterone?. 

If you take BO plus BCP you could be getting too much progesterone. And then there's the case of whats called the back door pathway of progesterone to DHT, lol there's such a thing. Some people (not all) have this genetic variant known as 3α-Androstanediol glucuronide...so basically it could raise androgens (via this backdoor pathway) and stop your breast growth possibly. It's verified through blood tests, or you might see more acne, excessive hair growth, oily skin, aggressive mood, etc. though this also is another sign of testosterone too, not just excessive DHT too. PCOS is another sign of DHT too, is it subject to this back door pathway too? it's quite possible.

Hi everyone, just wanted to share this post on BO I made over on the ladies a few years ago. One of many concerns about using BO is you have no idea what hormones you might be getting. Harder to say what stage of the estrous ovarian cycle each cow is in. If indeed there's more progesterone in BO and less pituitary then one has to be concerned with the back door pathway conversion of progesterone to DHT via the androgen 3α-Androstanediol Glucuronide. Which can be verified by a blood test to see if progesterone is increasing DHT. Or, a simple sign might be increased shaving, or a more aggressive mood. 

A primary feature of the androgen backdoor pathway is that 17α-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) can be 5α-reduced and finally converted to 5α-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) via an alternative route that bypasses the conventional[3] intermediates androstenedione and testosterone.[1][6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen...or_pathway

Hi Nefertiddy, 

I'm not a fan of BO (i had horrible side effects). Here's one of many issues I have with BO, (and I posted on this 5-6 years ago) we don't know when cattle are harvested. Meaning cows (heifers) have (roughly) a 21 day estrous cycle. 

Each cycle consists of a long luteal phase (days 1-17) where the cycle is under the influence of progesterone and a shorter follicular phase (days 18-21) where the cycle is under the influence of estrogen. The cycle begins with standing heat, or estrus. This time of peak estrogen secretion can last from 6 to 24 hours, with ovulation occurring 24 to 32 hours after the beginning of estrus.
https://beef.unl.edu/learning/estrous.shtml

Here's questions we should ask:

1)Is the BO from 100% grass fed/grass finished, free of antibiotics, pesticides, hormones, and GMO. 2) When was livestock harvested?, meaning when in an estrous cycle (this is most likely unobtainable). 
3) How long did the BO sit around before being frozen and dissected. 
4) Is the livestock subjected to synchronization?. This process shortens the breeding period to less than 5 days, instead of females being bred over a 21-day period, depending on the treatment regimen.

Ovaries from non-pregnant cows and heifers, obtained shortly after slaughter, were extracted with ethyl acetate and then defatted in cold 70% methanol.

4.33 μg. of progesterone  
0.79 μg- of Δ4-pregnene-20β-ol-3-one per gram of ovarian tissue. 
A trace of Δ4-androstene-3,17-dione or Δ4-pregnene-20α-ol-3-one and a very polar material were also detected.

I know BO has 17 β-estradiol (E2), it's difficult to quantify how much based on cell cultures though. Rather, we can say Testosterone is being synthesized (converted) to Estrogen by way of aromatase, which raises estrogen. 

But...seeing how short of time estrogen is stimulated in BO it's safe to say BO consists of more progesterone than estrogen. 

But when to supplement w/BO?. I'm gonna say in Luteal. 

The decision is up to you to Nefertiddy, try and see how it works. Though don't follow the old tired mantra of taking massive amounts. 2 per day to start works ok. 

wow...

The timing of slaughter is a very good point, I highly doubt that there is any consideration taken to the cycle of the cows... I can imagine that would complicate production and if they did the big brands would definitely advertise it. Maybe this could explain why some end up with androgenic effects (acne seems to be common) while others are greatly successful with it.

It seems to be sold out everywhere so I have some time to consider it. This was great insight, thank you so much!

[SweetO]

Lotus! 

So good to see you around here! How are you doing?

[Lotus]

Lotus! 

So good to see you around here! How are you doing?

Hi Sweets, I'm doing good, thanks for asking, I hope you and your family are doing well too. How goes things with you? any thoughts on your program or progress you want to discuss?.