[Palmdef]

Hi all, I’m just beginning my NBE journey and am feeling pretty overwhelmed. I got my hormones tested four days before my period started for unrelated reasons- I know it’s not the most ideal timing but I’m wondering if I could get some guidance on how they look. I’m willing to try herbal supplements, but hoping to focus on massage and food balance predominantly. My results are:
Prolactin: 16.9 ng/ml
Testosterone total: 22 ng/dl
LH: 3.1 mlU/ml
FSH: 3.4 mlU/ml
Estradiol: 57.8 pg/mL

I lift heavy weights and do a lot of squats, which is known to increase testosterone, so I’m looking to balance out, although I’m not entirely sure how to read my results. I do grow a few coarse chin hairs and nipple hairs, but maybe that’s just the Italian in me. I have just recently started lifting again and cleaning up my diet, which I’m aiming for high protein and low carb (working on growing the butt again too). I’m a pretty lacking 32B, 26f and looking to go as big as I can really. 
Really inspired and excited by all the journeys shared here, any help is appreciated x

[surferjoe2007]

It’s hard to know much without progesterone.  And what are the units on each of these? (such as ng/mL)

[Palmdef]

It’s hard to know much without progesterone.  And what are the units on each of these? (such as ng/mL)

I just update the units, sorry! Unfortunately she did not test my progesterone levels  
I’ll try to go and get my blood done again soon.

[surferjoe2007]

It’s hard to know much without progesterone.  And what are the units on each of these? (such as ng/mL)

I just update the units, sorry! Unfortunately she did not test my progesterone levels  
I’ll try to go and get my blood done again soon.

Prolactin normal, maybe a little high
Testosterone low-normal.  While that may mean less DHT (“bad” testosterone leading to acne and hair in unusual places) since DHT is made from T, that’s not always the case.
LH low-normal
FSH low-normal
Estradiol high-normal.  But hard to tell since it’s late in the cycle.  It’s about normal at a time when it’s supposed to be lower.  Doing a test 3/4 of the way through the cycle when estrogen and progesterone have a peak would give a better idea.

High protein is bad for nbe though some is ok.  But not really helpful since it’s super rare to have too little.  It’s in every food group not just animal products and it all adds up.  And many good nbe nutrients are in whole seeds and vegetables.  Whole seeds are high carb, and very large amounts of seeds and/or vegetables are needed.  So it may be hard to get enough from vegetables alone.  For both, canned doesn’t count.  But frozen is fine.  Or better yet try the food list in my signature list to get a complete plan.  If you plan on doing another hormone test then you may want to wait on any herbs in case they interfere with the results.

[Palmdef]

It’s hard to know much without progesterone.  And what are the units on each of these? (such as ng/mL)

I just update the units, sorry! Unfortunately she did not test my progesterone levels  
I’ll try to go and get my blood done again soon.

Prolactin normal, maybe a little high
Testosterone low-normal.  While that may mean less DHT (“bad” testosterone leading to acne and hair in unusual places) since DHT is made from T, that’s not always the case.
LH low-normal
FSH low-normal
Estradiol high-normal.  But hard to tell since it’s late in the cycle.  It’s about normal at a time when it’s supposed to be lower.  Doing a test 3/4 of the way through the cycle when estrogen and progesterone have a peak would give a better idea.

High protein is bad for nbe though some is ok.  But not really helpful since it’s super rare to have too little.  It’s in every food group not just animal products and it all adds up.  And many good nbe nutrients are in whole seeds and vegetables.  Whole seeds are high carb, and very large amounts of seeds and/or vegetables are needed.  So it may be hard to get enough from vegetables alone.  For both, canned doesn’t count.  But frozen is fine.  Or better yet try the food list in my signature list to get a complete plan.  If you plan on doing another hormone test then you may want to wait on any herbs in case they interfere with the results.

Thank you for your insights! I am sticking on having solid nutrition and incorporating your plan. I’m also taking Raw maca and 50% saponins. What’s the max amount of saponins I should have daily? The dose I have currently is 1200 and I’m not sure if I should do more, as your plan suggests ramping it up after a few weeks but I don’t know if 1200 is the max.

[surferjoe2007]

It’s hard to know much without progesterone.  And what are the units on each of these? (such as ng/mL)

I just update the units, sorry! Unfortunately she did not test my progesterone levels  
I’ll try to go and get my blood done again soon.

Prolactin normal, maybe a little high
Testosterone low-normal.  While that may mean less DHT (“bad” testosterone leading to acne and hair in unusual places) since DHT is made from T, that’s not always the case.
LH low-normal
FSH low-normal
Estradiol high-normal.  But hard to tell since it’s late in the cycle.  It’s about normal at a time when it’s supposed to be lower.  Doing a test 3/4 of the way through the cycle when estrogen and progesterone have a peak would give a better idea.

High protein is bad for nbe though some is ok.  But not really helpful since it’s super rare to have too little.  It’s in every food group not just animal products and it all adds up.  And many good nbe nutrients are in whole seeds and vegetables.  Whole seeds are high carb, and very large amounts of seeds and/or vegetables are needed.  So it may be hard to get enough from vegetables alone.  For both, canned doesn’t count.  But frozen is fine.  Or better yet try the food list in my signature list to get a complete plan.  If you plan on doing another hormone test then you may want to wait on any herbs in case they interfere with the results.

Thank you for your insights! I am sticking on having solid nutrition and incorporating your plan. I’m also taking Raw maca and 50% saponins. What’s the max amount of saponins I should have daily? The dose I have currently is 1200 and I’m not sure if I should do more, as your plan suggests ramping it up after a few weeks but I don’t know if 1200 is the max.

“Saponins” is kind of like “essential oils” in that I hope you mean fenugreek or shatavari or else it could be something else entirely.  1200 mg is a safe low amount of either with 50% saponins.  You can go up to 2400 mg if there aren’t any side effects.  Maybe a little further such as 3,000-3,600 mg again if there aren’t side effects.  Though it might not do much more.  If you do good side effects then a few months on the foods may help before increasing again.  Same for other herbs.  If you have hypoglycemia then don’t use any amount of fenugreek or shatavari.

[Lotus]

Saponins” is kind of like “essential oils” in that I hope you mean fenugreek or shatavari or else it could be something else entirely.  1200 mg is a safe low amount of either with 50% saponins.  You can go up to 2400 mg if there aren’t any side effects.  Maybe a little further such as 3,000-3,600 mg again if there aren’t side effects.  Though it might not do much more.  If you do good side effects then a few months on the foods may help before increasing again.  Same for other herbs.  If you have hypoglycemia then don’t use any amount of fenugreek or shatavari

Sorry, this advice is reckless. Fenugreek lowers insulin...fast. Suggesting such amounts to women can bottom out a female's blood sugar level in no time flat. You've suggested this course before and a good friend of mine followed your advice and passed out and wound up in the hospital requiring stitches...good thing she wasn't driving, do you remember this joe? And as I cautioned back then about going over the recommended amounts you're still suggesting these crazy amounts.

"A cautionary tale for sure, herbs do carry risks. As with anything, always check with your primary care physician. And a general rule: do not exceed the recommended dosage. The higher (or more) the better theory for supplements is completely false."
https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=23119
 (you're response is on page 2, joe) 

Fenugreek increases estradiol
https://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=26172

Per the study:

The investigational product contained 300 mg of libifem, a standardized extract of T.foenum-graecum (fenugreek) seed extract [dry concentrate 33:1] equivalent to 9.9 g dry herb, standardized to a minimum 50% saponin glycosides.

foenum-graecum seed extract was also associated with a significant increase in E2 levels.(Simon, 2011) 

Study participants underwent follicular blood tests on day 7-9, (though not all did).....thus the data on increased estradiol. It makes sense (to me) taking FG in follicular.....vitex in luteal would work too. And in my opinion Vitex is a generic version of Prozac.....which will increase PRL (and it does).  

Fenugreek lowers progesterone and raises estradiol followed by prolactin.

Hey Lotus
I thought since FG raises estradiol, wouldn't that be taken when E rises? But you're also saying it raises P-- so I am a bit confused lol (sorry) this whole time I thought FG worked on E and should be taken during follicular?

Do you think FG extract should be cycled the same way because it would have the same effect? I have been considering Fenu extract, flaxseed and hops oils (all topical)

Hey there missB,

The science from the study indicates estradiol (in the second month) was raised by 50%(my calculations) @ 600 mg a day for two menstrual cycles. Btw, FG needs to be at least 50% steroidal saponins. (NOTE-that's not a misprint, only 600 mg was used).

 steroidal saponins reported to exhibit estrogenic effects including binding to E2 receptors and inducing the expression of E2 responsive genes (Sreejaet al., 2010). 

It raises prolactin yes, though not as significant as estradiol. From the study, FG lowers cholesterol, SHBG, progesterone and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). It also raises LH (luteinizing hormone @ 41%)......thus the need for additional 5 AR inhibitors.

To me, FG needs to be in the first half and Vitex in the second half. I'll have to adjust the supplement info about FG lowering progesterone. Alternatively, I'd take FG with a conversion supplement (pro-aromatase) considering what it does to FSH, which synthesizes aromatase. I'm excited about a new aromatase approach using EPO and peanut oil, though I'm looking for an alternative for those with peanut allergies. What the 2 combination does is its binding ability in EGF (epidermal growth factor). I'll post more info on the X thread. 

Topical FG is OK (though much DHT is in the skin). Use a good skin penetrator that inhibits 5 Alpha Reductase (inhibits DHT) too.....EPO (evening primrose oil) could work. The study size was 80 premenopausal women.  

Palmdef, more than likely your issue is hidden in DHEA (though not listed, I'm confident having read/analyzed many lab results to know (or recognize) the pattern based on what youve already shared. Your results are similar to women with pcos or hirsute woman…not identical, but similar. Low Estradiol, higher androgens, chin hair etc, though much is driven by your weights lifting, so your body is sensing the increase in T most likely driven by an increase in IGF-1. Inhibiting DHEA, lowering SHBG and raising estradiol is your main goal. Fenugreek helps lower SHBG and raises Estradiol, per the study only 600 mg fenugreek was used. In addition you can also add a pro-aromatase supplement to help synthesize fenugreek during follicular phase, e.g. forskolin or ginseng. For luteal I'd recommend still using 600mg of fenugreek alongside micronized progesterone cream. 

If you require even stronger anti-androgens I'll be sharing new information in my thread later today. Apologies for the intrusion in your thread, I think you deserve the correct information. I'm adding this study because you'll see DHEA-S and DHEA are the major androgens in females followed by androstenedione (A), testosterone (T), and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in descending order of serum concentration.

Androgen production in women 
Henry G Burger. Fertil Steril. 2002 Apr. 
Abstract 

Objective: To describe the sources, production rates, circulating concentrations, and regulatory mechanisms of the major androgen precursors and androgens in women. 

Design: Review of the major published literature. 

Result(s): Quantitatively, women secrete greater amounts of androgen than of estrogen. The major circulating steroids generally classified as androgens include dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), androstenedione (A), testosterone (T), and dihydrotestosterone in descending order of serum concentration, though only the latter two bind the androgen receptor. The other three steroids are better considered as pro-androgens. Dehydroepiandrosterone is primarily an adrenal product, regulated by adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) and acting as a precursor for the peripheral synthesis of more potent androgens. Dehydroepiandrosterone is produced by both the ovary and adrenal, as well as being derived from circulating DHEAS. Androstenedione and testosterone are products of the ovary and the adrenal. Testosterone circulates both in its free form, and bound to protein including albumin and sex steroid hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), the levels of which are an important determinant of free testosterone concentration. 

Conclusion(s): The postmenopausal ovary is an androgen-secreting organ and the levels of testosterone are not directly influenced by the menopausal transition or the occurrence of menopause. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is primarily a peripheral product of testosterone metabolism. Severe androgen deficiency occurs in hypopituitarism, but other causes may lead to androgen deficiency, including Addison's disease, corticosteroid therapy, chronic illness, estrogen replacement (leads to elevated SHBG and, therefore, low free testosterone), premenopausal ovarian failure, or oophorectomy.

[surferjoe2007]

The amount is common in studies and various successful nbe programs.  Human studies often but not always err towards the low end though.  Rats are given more than double the above mg/kg extract in studies without any adverse effects (and beneficial effects).  Men can use it for testosterone and I’ve used a little more for many years.  Physicals come out normal.  Including tests related to blood sugar and insulin.  Hypoglycemics are more sensitive and shouldn’t use any at all, not even smaller amounts.

Around 10g or a tbsp. whole seeds per serving is a common Indian side dish.  Not an extract obviously.

I do remember a forum user who kept using fenugreek for a long time even though she had hypoglycemia, trying to find ways to mitigate the low blood sugar.  And then passed out from low blood sugar in spite of the efforts as her sensitivity to it worsened.  Iirc she only used a few grams (whole herb not extract) even though 10-30g is commonly given to people in human studies.

[Lotus]

The amount is common in studies and various successful nbe programs

3,600 mg of Fenugreek isn't common in ANY past or present successful NBE program I've ever seen, and that includes Breastnexum. Women have slower metabolisms than men, so they'll hang on to this 3,600 mg of fenugreek longer, I've told you this before. You can't advocate man size dosages for women.

[Lotus]

 I have just recently started lifting again and cleaning up my diet, which I’m aiming for high protein and low carb (working on growing the butt again too). I’m a pretty lacking 32B, 26f and looking to go as big as I can really. 
Really inspired and excited by all the journeys shared here, any help is appreciated x

Palmdef, I think you'll be okay with adding more protein, from the science I've seen on protein synthesis and its pathway can help with breast growth. But you'll need to add MSM and vitamin D3 to make this combination work more efficiently. Those two together have a synergistic combination in breast growth with attached science. I would also recommend with the added protein you'd consider using an anti-androgen. 

Gender differences in metabolism; nutrition and supplements
M A Tarnopolsky. J Sci Med Sport. 2000 Sep.
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Abstract
For many decades researchers did not consider that there were any differences between the genders in the metabolic response to exercise. As a result, nutritional recommendations and exercise training prescriptions have not considered the potential for gender specific responses. More recently, we and others have demonstrated that females oxidize proportionately more lipid and less carbohydrate during endurance exercise as compared to males. The oxidation of amino acids is similarly lower in females as compared to males during exercise. These gender differences are partially mediated by a higher estrogen concentration in females. Specific areas where there are gender differences in nutritional/supplement recommendations include carbohydrate (CHO) nutrition, protein requirements and creatine (CRM) supplementation. We have shown that females do not carbohydrate load in response to an increase in dietary carbohydrate when expressed as a percentage of total energy intake (i.e., 55-75%), however if they consume >8 g CHOxkg(-1)xd(-1), they show similar increases as compared to males. Top sport male and female athletes require somewhat more dietary protein as compared to sedentary persons. The maximal increase is approximately 100% for elite male athletes and approximately 50-60% for elite female athletes. Fortunately, most athletes habitually consume this level of protein intake. We have recently demonstrated that females show a lesser increase in lean body mass following acute CRM loading as compared to males. Females also did not show reductions in protein breakdown in response to CRM loading, whereas males did. In the future I expect that there will be further research from which gender specific nutritional/supplement recommendations