[Wheyfu]

Hi all! I am new here but have been browsing NBE related forums and such online.

I am a 27 year old female, athletic pear shape build, with a lot to be desired in the boob area.

I am only currently taking:

*FreezeDried Bovine Mammary capsules x2/day (prohormone)

*Fenugreek x2/day (prolactin?)

After reading a bit on the forum, I still need a estrogenic herb , pro-aromatase, potentiator and an anti androgen.

I was going to get:

*Estrogenic Herb: Red Clover
*Pro-aromatase: white peony
*Potentiator: GABA
*Anti Androgen: Spearmint

I do mild massage about 20min a day currently, and know that's probably not enough!

Other things to note, I currently do weight lifting, and don't want to lose too much of my musculature, however I know that these supplements could mess with performance in the gym. 

The current two supplements above I am taking have given me a tiny tiny bit of growth and have made my nipples hurt, but I feel like I'm not doing all that I could be. 

Any and all help is appreciated!!!!

[Lotus]

Hi Wheyfu, here's some info on white peony...a little technical yes, but it's what you need to know when ordering WP. Vitamin D3 is a better potentiator than GABA. If you were using BCP or progesterone cream then I'd suggest using GABA as the former depletes allopregnanolone...which can lead to depression. If spearmint doesn't work try reishi mushroom, but don't use saw palmetto...it inhibits progesterone receptors and it's  antiestrogenic...especially when used with BCP. It also increases triglycerides, which you'll hear reviews statements of getting cellulite when using SP.

Fenugreek increases estradiol...600mg, so you don't need red clover. 

Pueraria Mirifica – Awesome for breast growth

Reishi-reishi mushrooms – Significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony – Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Th above is what I've been reading on this thread. My question is: Should one combine PM with both RM AND WP? Does WP & RM not do the same thing? Why take both in a HRT program? Or am I missing something?

Both are similar, however...there's significant differences. From the research I've covered Reishi Inhibits type I & II 5ar....and WP binds androgen receptors. When i took Reishi i could 4-5 days without needing a shave. Now, on HRT i need a shave within 2days...and that's with my T and free T being non-existent, so go figure. 

WP needs to be standardized to contain a minimum of 10% Paeoniflorin (solaray has one i believe). Total glucosides of peony (TGP), contains more than 15 components, BUT Paeoniflorin is the most abundant ingredient and NEEDS to be 90% of the total glucosides. 

There's about a gazillion scientific papers on WP and it's benefits, I've posted most of what i think is beneficial for NBE here (at BN). In the BN search engine insert Lotus into the userame and check box for posts (not threads) and you find what I've shared. 

Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO. 

Fenugreek is estrogenic...600mg increases estradiol.

Can White Peony Root and Red Reishi Mushroom be used together if so what outcome could I see from using them both?

I had WP and reishi in my NBE plan....and have used reishi with HRT. In Chinese herbal medicine WP with reishi pairs the two as a synergy. Reishi inhibits DHT while WP promotes aromatase (inhibits DHT too). 

Any opinions on Swanson White Peony Root will it work just fine?

Hi BB, 

Someone shared the WP content of Swanson's brand a while back (my apologies to the OP I don't remember who though). White peony (standardized) should bump aromatase 2-3 fold (based on scientific literature) a 30% increase, for myself that means an increase of 60-80 pg/mL blood estradiol, though everybody is different. I believe Life Extension sells a standardized capsule but Swanson full spectrum isn't standardized.

It's Swanson's capsules. 
I'll have to check the label.

I believe it's not standardized (lol, I have a bottle sitting on the shelf too). Here's a few things about WP, or where I think the rubber needs to meet the road, or more to the point finding a suitable WP supplement that contains two compounds: 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin and pentagalloylglucos, they bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT. Let's let science solve this puzzle of what WP does for NBE.....which I think we just did. The dose could be less than I calculated earlier if these compound and the main glycoside 3'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin are present would be estimated at 1 gram. 

Additionally, testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio is also reduced (significantly) by paeoniflorin (white peony). 

So, in ovaries WP promotes aromatase, (I believe in the breasts too), inhibits DHT in sebum, inhibits prostate cancer cells, (which means it inhibits C17 @ CYP17 P450 enzyme, a strong anti-androgen. The lab dosage was 2 grams (I'll have to double check). Roots be king.

Androgen modulators from the roots of Paeonia lactiflora (paeoniae radix) grown and processed in nara prefecture, Japan.
Washida K1, Itoh Y, Iwashita T, Nomoto K.
Author information

Abstract
The monoterpene glycoside, 3'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin (1), and four known compounds, 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin (2), pentagalloylglucose (3), 6'-O-benzoylpaeoniflorin (4) and 6'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin (5), were isolated from the roots of Paeonia lactiflora that had been grown and processed in Nara prefecture, Japan, as androgen modulators. Their structures were elucidated based on spectroscopic analysis. Compounds 2 and 3 showed strong androgen receptor (AR) binding activity (IC(50) values 33.7 and 4.1 microg/ml, respectively), 1, 4 and 5 showed weak activity (20, 31 and 12% at 120 microg/ml, respectively). However, paeoniflorin (6) and albiflorin (7), the structures of which are related to 1, 2, 4 and 5, showed no activity. These results suggested that both the structure of albiflorin and the galloyl moiety are important for 2 to show strong AR binding activity. Furthermore, compounds 1-5 inhibited growth of an androgen-dependent LNCaP-FGC (prostate cancer cell line), and were indicated to be AR antagonists. Compounds 2 and 3 might be candidates as safe, natural anti-androgens.

Testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio was lowered significantly by paeoniflorin, and two compounds, 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin and pentagalloylglucos bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT.

[Wheyfu]

Hi Wheyfu, here's some info on white peony...a little technical yes, but it's what you need to know when ordering WP. Vitamin D3 is a better potentiator than GABA. If you were using BCP or progesterone cream then I'd suggest using GABA as the former depletes allopregnanolone...which can lead to depression. If spearmint doesn't work try reishi mushroom, but don't use saw palmetto...it inhibits progesterone receptors and it's  antiestrogenic...especially when used with BCP. It also increases triglycerides, which you'll hear reviews statements of getting cellulite when using SP.

Fenugreek increases estradiol...600mg, so you don't need red clover. 

Pueraria Mirifica – Awesome for breast growth

Reishi-reishi mushrooms – Significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.

White Peony – Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Th above is what I've been reading on this thread. My question is: Should one combine PM with both RM AND WP? Does WP & RM not do the same thing? Why take both in a HRT program? Or am I missing something?

Both are similar, however...there's significant differences. From the research I've covered Reishi Inhibits type I & II 5ar....and WP binds androgen receptors. When i took Reishi i could 4-5 days without needing a shave. Now, on HRT i need a shave within 2days...and that's with my T and free T being non-existent, so go figure. 

WP needs to be standardized to contain a minimum of 10% Paeoniflorin (solaray has one i believe). Total glucosides of peony (TGP), contains more than 15 components, BUT Paeoniflorin is the most abundant ingredient and NEEDS to be 90% of the total glucosides. 

There's about a gazillion scientific papers on WP and it's benefits, I've posted most of what i think is beneficial for NBE here (at BN). In the BN search engine insert Lotus into the userame and check box for posts (not threads) and you find what I've shared. 

Using WP and Reishi together works synergistically IMHO. 

Fenugreek is estrogenic...600mg increases estradiol.

Can White Peony Root and Red Reishi Mushroom be used together if so what outcome could I see from using them both?

I had WP and reishi in my NBE plan....and have used reishi with HRT. In Chinese herbal medicine WP with reishi pairs the two as a synergy. Reishi inhibits DHT while WP promotes aromatase (inhibits DHT too). 

Any opinions on Swanson White Peony Root will it work just fine?

Hi BB, 

Someone shared the WP content of Swanson's brand a while back (my apologies to the OP I don't remember who though). White peony (standardized) should bump aromatase 2-3 fold (based on scientific literature) a 30% increase, for myself that means an increase of 60-80 pg/mL blood estradiol, though everybody is different. I believe Life Extension sells a standardized capsule but Swanson full spectrum isn't standardized.

It's Swanson's capsules. 
I'll have to check the label.

I believe it's not standardized (lol, I have a bottle sitting on the shelf too). Here's a few things about WP, or where I think the rubber needs to meet the road, or more to the point finding a suitable WP supplement that contains two compounds: 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin and pentagalloylglucos, they bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT. Let's let science solve this puzzle of what WP does for NBE.....which I think we just did. The dose could be less than I calculated earlier if these compound and the main glycoside 3'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin are present would be estimated at 1 gram. 

Additionally, testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio is also reduced (significantly) by paeoniflorin (white peony). 

So, in ovaries WP promotes aromatase, (I believe in the breasts too), inhibits DHT in sebum, inhibits prostate cancer cells, (which means it inhibits C17 @ CYP17 P450 enzyme, a strong anti-androgen. The lab dosage was 2 grams (I'll have to double check). Roots be king.

Androgen modulators from the roots of Paeonia lactiflora (paeoniae radix) grown and processed in nara prefecture, Japan.
Washida K1, Itoh Y, Iwashita T, Nomoto K.
Author information

Abstract
The monoterpene glycoside, 3'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin (1), and four known compounds, 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin (2), pentagalloylglucose (3), 6'-O-benzoylpaeoniflorin (4) and 6'-O-galloylpaeoniflorin (5), were isolated from the roots of Paeonia lactiflora that had been grown and processed in Nara prefecture, Japan, as androgen modulators. Their structures were elucidated based on spectroscopic analysis. Compounds 2 and 3 showed strong androgen receptor (AR) binding activity (IC(50) values 33.7 and 4.1 microg/ml, respectively), 1, 4 and 5 showed weak activity (20, 31 and 12% at 120 microg/ml, respectively). However, paeoniflorin (6) and albiflorin (7), the structures of which are related to 1, 2, 4 and 5, showed no activity. These results suggested that both the structure of albiflorin and the galloyl moiety are important for 2 to show strong AR binding activity. Furthermore, compounds 1-5 inhibited growth of an androgen-dependent LNCaP-FGC (prostate cancer cell line), and were indicated to be AR antagonists. Compounds 2 and 3 might be candidates as safe, natural anti-androgens.

Testosterone/delta 4-androstenedione production ratio was lowered significantly by paeoniflorin, and two compounds, 6'-O-galloylalbiflorin and pentagalloylglucos bind androgen receptors and inhibit DHT.

THANK YOU! This was very helpful <3