[honey_bunny3456]

Hey, Joe!

I’m a newbie here, so I’m trying to get as much info as possible before starting with supplements, so I’d appreciate it if you could give me your opinion on my situation!

I’m a 19 (almost 20) year old south European  biological female (not on any type of birth control). I have B cup boobs and I’m very heavy on the bottom (my waist is 70 cm and my hips are 120 cm), but overall pretty fit. I tested my hormones at the beginning and at the end of 2023 and here are the results:

Beginning of 2023:

LH: 5.02 (normal range for the follicular phase: 1.80-11.78)
FSH: 5.16 (normal range for the follicular phase: 3.03-8.08)
Estradiol: 95 (normal range for the follicular phase: 77-921)
Progesterone: 40.00 (normal range for the luteal phase: 3.82-50.56)

End of 2023 (Didn’t check LH):

Progesterone: 2.11 (normal range for the luteal phase: 3.82-50.56; I’ve tested it 2 days before my period started, so could such a serious drop in progesterone be caused by the fact that the follicular phase started 2 days after I tested it?)

DHEA-S: 8.20 (normal range: 1.20-10.30)

DHT: 134.9 (normal range: <596)

FSH: 4.91 (normal range for the follicular phase: 3.03-8.08)

Estradiol: 29.6 (normal range for the follicular phase: 12.5 - 166 (did the test in a different lab, so the ranges differ from the previous time that I tested Estradiol)


I became really scared by a sudden drop in progesterone levels, so I bought a wild yams PC that I’ve been using for 2 months now. It helped to stabilize my periods, cause previously my menstrual cycle would change and my periods would start 4-7 days sooner or later than expected(although this is a problem that I started having since I turned 18; before that my cycle was always stable). It also made my boobs softer and reduced their swallowing in the luteal phase. Before using progesterone cream my boobs would kind of deflate a lot in the follicular phase and swallow into a very full B cup in the luteal phase. Now they are always the same size, although they deflate a bit right after my period ends (this is also something that concerns me).

Before buying the PC cream for myself I’ve only used Fenugreek oil to massage my breasts and maintain their perkiness and round shape. 

My current goals are to stabilize my hormone levels, bring back my stable menstrual cycle and maybe grow into a full C cup. I’ve purchased MSM, vitamin C, vitamin E, Vitex, Fenugreek extract (50% saponins), saw palmetto extract (I’ve been struggling with excessive facial hair for about a year now, and I’m 100% sure that it’s due to hormone imbalances), L-arginine, L-lysine, Calcium D-Glucarate (for detoxification purposes), and brewers yeast. I can purchase the herbs and supplement only from iHerb, cause I’m not in the States. 

I also live a very healthy lifestyle for about 5 years now. I workout 3 times a week, maintain healthy weight, eat a lot of protein and healthy fats. I’m eating pretty much everything that you suggest to eat on your NBE program (apart from the rice bran, I couldn’t find it in my country yet) 

So I have the following questions:

1. What do you think of my hormone levels and what supplements/herbs should I take to balance them out? (I’ve always thought that I was estrogen dominant because of my large butt, but it seems that my hormones fluctuate a lot and I might not even be estro dominant? all the women from my moms side of the family are very pear-shaped (and struggle with estro dominance), but I have an hourglass body (broad shoulders, very wide hips and a small waist in comparison to my butt of course)
   
2. Does the fact that my boobs now deflate a bit after my period ends mean that I don’t have enough estrogen in my body to prevent that from happening? 
   
3. What’s up with that sudden drop in progesterone? 
   
4. Is massaging/noogling necessary for NBE? I can’t purchase Noogleberry nor can I keep massaging with such heavy oils cause they just cause breakouts and redness. I also don’t want to loose nipple sensitivity from pumping  
   

Thank you so much for your advice in advance! Love your NBE program!! 

[surferjoe2007]

Hey, Joe!

I’m a newbie here, so I’m trying to get as much info as possible before starting with supplements, so I’d appreciate it if you could give me your opinion on my situation!

I’m a 19 (almost 20) year old south European  biological female (not on any type of birth control). I have B cup boobs and I’m very heavy on the bottom (my waist is 70 cm and my hips are 120 cm), but overall pretty fit. I tested my hormones at the beginning and at the end of 2023 and here are the results:

Beginning of 2023:

LH: 5.02 (normal range for the follicular phase: 1.80-11.78)
FSH: 5.16 (normal range for the follicular phase: 3.03-8.08)
Estradiol: 95 (normal range for the follicular phase: 77-921)
Progesterone: 40.00 (normal range for the luteal phase: 3.82-50.56)

End of 2023 (Didn’t check LH):

Progesterone: 2.11 (normal range for the luteal phase: 3.82-50.56; I’ve tested it 2 days before my period started, so could such a serious drop in progesterone be caused by the fact that the follicular phase started 2 days after I tested it?)

DHEA-S: 8.20 (normal range: 1.20-10.30)

DHT: 134.9 (normal range: <596)

FSH: 4.91 (normal range for the follicular phase: 3.03-8.08)

Estradiol: 29.6 (normal range for the follicular phase: 12.5 - 166 (did the test in a different lab, so the ranges differ from the previous time that I tested Estradiol)


I became really scared by a sudden drop in progesterone levels, so I bought a wild yams PC that I’ve been using for 2 months now. It helped to stabilize my periods, cause previously my menstrual cycle would change and my periods would start 4-7 days sooner or later than expected(although this is a problem that I started having since I turned 18; before that my cycle was always stable). It also made my boobs softer and reduced their swallowing in the luteal phase. Before using progesterone cream my boobs would kind of deflate a lot in the follicular phase and swallow into a very full B cup in the luteal phase. Now they are always the same size, although they deflate a bit right after my period ends (this is also something that concerns me).

Before buying the PC cream for myself I’ve only used Fenugreek oil to massage my breasts and maintain their perkiness and round shape. 

My current goals are to stabilize my hormone levels, bring back my stable menstrual cycle and maybe grow into a full C cup. I’ve purchased MSM, vitamin C, vitamin E, Vitex, Fenugreek extract (50% saponins), saw palmetto extract (I’ve been struggling with excessive facial hair for about a year now, and I’m 100% sure that it’s due to hormone imbalances), L-arginine, L-lysine, Calcium D-Glucarate (for detoxification purposes), and brewers yeast. I can purchase the herbs and supplement only from iHerb, cause I’m not in the States. 

I also live a very healthy lifestyle for about 5 years now. I workout 3 times a week, maintain healthy weight, eat a lot of protein and healthy fats. I’m eating pretty much everything that you suggest to eat on your NBE program (apart from the rice bran, I couldn’t find it in my country yet) 

So I have the following questions:

1. What do you think of my hormone levels and what supplements/herbs should I take to balance them out? (I’ve always thought that I was estrogen dominant because of my large butt, but it seems that my hormones fluctuate a lot and I might not even be estro dominant? all the women from my moms side of the family are very pear-shaped (and struggle with estro dominance), but I have an hourglass body (broad shoulders, very wide hips and a small waist in comparison to my butt of course)
   
2. Does the fact that my boobs now deflate a bit after my period ends mean that I don’t have enough estrogen in my body to prevent that from happening? 
   
3. What’s up with that sudden drop in progesterone? 
   
4. Is massaging/noogling necessary for NBE? I can’t purchase Noogleberry nor can I keep massaging with such heavy oils cause they just cause breakouts and redness. I also don’t want to loose nipple sensitivity from pumping  
   

Thank you so much for your advice in advance! Love your NBE program!! 

What day in your cycle was/were the first test(s) taken?  Where day 1 is when your period starts.  How many days is your cycle?  Are your boobs usually the same as the largest swollen size from before or they usually the same as the smallest size?  Brown rice can replace rice bran.  2/3 cup if measured dry or 1-1/3 cup measured cooked.

Hormones drop near the end of your cycle so 2 days before your period might not tell you much.

[honey_bunny3456]

Thanks for such a quick response!

1. I tested LH, FSH and estradiol on the third or fourth day of my cycle and progesterone around a week before my period started (this was at the beginning of 2023)
   
2. My cycle was always around 27 to 31 days max. Before starting with PC, some hormonal changes caused my period to start earlier than normal and my cycle was around 22-23 days for two months straight. Then PC stabilized it, and my cycle was 27 days in December and 30 days in January. 
   
3. My boobs are usually the same as the largest swollen size from before (apart from that period of time right at the end of my period when they deflate only a bit but they get back to normal size right after ovulation). I think PC might have caused some growth for me, as my boobs stay the same swollen size, but they are very soft (so no tenderness at all even before my period).
   

And thank you so much for suggesting brown rice! I already eat brown basmati rice regularly btw. 

Do you suggest that I should retake the hormonal tests (especially progesterone)? And when exactly should I test progesterone? My doctor always recommended to test it a week before my period starts. 

And what do you think of my estradiol levels? 

Thank you so much in advance!  

[surferjoe2007]

Thanks for such a quick response!

1. I tested LH, FSH and estradiol on the third or fourth day of my cycle and progesterone around a week before my period started (this was at the beginning of 2023)
   
2. My cycle was always around 27 to 31 days max. Before starting with PC, some hormonal changes caused my period to start earlier than normal and my cycle was around 22-23 days for two months straight. Then PC stabilized it, and my cycle was 27 days in December and 30 days in January. 
   
3. My boobs are usually the same as the largest swollen size from before (apart from that period of time right at the end of my period when they deflate only a bit but they get back to normal size right after ovulation). I think PC might have caused some growth for me, as my boobs stay the same swollen size, but they are very soft (so no tenderness at all even before my period).
   

And thank you so much for suggesting brown rice! I already eat brown basmati rice regularly btw. 

Do you suggest that I should retake the hormonal tests (especially progesterone)? And when exactly should I test progesterone? My doctor always recommended to test it a week before my period starts. 

And what do you think of my estradiol levels? 

Thank you so much in advance!  

No problem.  Day 3 and 2 days before your period tend to have low estrogen and progesterone so it may be hard to tell from those days.  You could retest a week before your period starts or you could try more PC and see what happens since it has helped so far.  If it stops helping you might go back down or add pueraria mirifica.  The lack of swelling yet greater general size might be because your hormones are better balanced now, so there isn’t as strong of a response during or a little after late luteal when your body makes progesterone naturally.

Yeah your testosterone is and was probably high and saw palmetto extract can help.  If you need more you can do use up to 10g dry spearmint in tea.  But this can also reduce regular testosterone which can have benefits for muscle workouts and your lower half.  Not only fight the DHT that leads to excessive facial hair.  Both forms of testosterone are anti-breast.  So it depends whether it’s worth the tradeoff for you.  

Both estrogen and progesterone are low during your period so it’s normal to deflate afterwards regardless of your hormone balance.  If you swell up a lot after ovulation (mid cycle) then more estrogen imitators such as PM may help though.  If your hormones are balanced then both PM and PC may help, though that is a stronger program.

Massaging and noogling aren’t necessary and I don’t usually bring them up because they are so time consuming to even get a little growth.  But a little bit of massage, at least 15 min twice a week, helps circulation and breast health and may help supplements work.  A non-oily lotion or anything else is fine.  Some oils do a little better but it’s not critical.

[TheBreastEngineer]

Awesome information Joe, this fundamentally makes sense. I’ll be using your research as the starting point

[TheBreastEngineer]

With the herbal routine, is there any guidance from members of ingestion timing and combination strategies? Taking herbs should ideally follow the below in my estimation:
1) be complementary with other foods eaten (i.e. digestive enzymes that break down meat neutralize with those that break down starch which is why meat and potatoes stick around in your stomach a lot longer from a prolonged digestion period, very inefficient)
2) be complementary with other herbs taken at the same time for pH/reactivity (similar to the meat and potatoes. Side note, if you eat a large handful of strawberries and blue berries and then have a banana, the acid from the berries will react with the banana negatively leading to gas. Bananas are more neutral fruits and don't pair well with acidic fruits.
3) be timed at the right part of the day. Some herbs may be best to take in the morning, the afternoon, or right before bed.

[black eyed susan]

Side note, if you eat a large handful of strawberries and blue berries and then have a banana

The points you make about ingestion timing and combination are all valid, but most people taking herbs for NBE aren't consuming large handfuls of anything. I think it's worth bearing in mind that herbal programs often consist of just a few grams of supplements a day.

[honey_bunny3456]

Hey, Joe! So sorry for such a late response, I was so busy and stressed the past month I’ll follow your instructions and get back with an update as soon as I notice some progress. 

I also redid all the hormonal tests about a week ago, so here are the results after 2 months of using progesterone cream and 2 weeks of saw palmetto, Vitex, MSM, Fenugreek extract:


Folic acid: 3.3 (recommended ranges: 3.0-17.0) 
Ferritin: 13.1 (recommended ranges: 15.0-150.0)
Free T3: 3.53 (recommended ranges: 2.56-5.01)
Free T4: 1.44 (recommended ranges: 0.8-2.10)
TSH: 4.360 (recommended ranges: 0.27-4.2). 
Androstenedione: 2.46 (recommended ranges: 0.40-4.95) 
Estradiol: 151 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 43,8-211,0)
Progesterone: 5.55 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 1.7-27.00)
17-OH Progesterone: 2.29 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 1.00-4.51)
Cortisol: 10.1 (recommended ranges for day-time testing: 2.3-11.9)
DHEA-S: 5.34 (recommended ranges: 1.77-9.99)
Testosterone: 0.260 (recommended ranges: 0.084-0.481)
Free testosterone: 1.28 (recommended ranges: 0.2-2)
Free androgen index: 2.9 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 0.8-11)
Sex hormone-binding globulin: 31 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 18-144)
DHT: 129 (recommended ranges: <596) 
LH: 7.51 (recommended ranges for the follicular phase: 2.4-12.6)
FSH: 4.83 (recommended ranges for the follicular phase: 3.5-12.5)
Prolactin: 19.7 (recommended ranges: 6-29.9)

I was diagnosed with subclinical hypothyroidism. This thyroid disfunction is probably caused by chronic stress, so it’s no surprise that my progesterone is low. I’ve consulted with both a gynecologist and endocrinologist and they recommended me to fix my thyroid and iron deficiency issues first and then my progesterone will raise pretty quickly by itself.

So this will be my hormone balancing and NBE program: 

• Iodine + selenium; arctic kelp - for my hypothyroidism 
  
• Vitamin C 1000 mg - for progesterone
  
• Vitamin E 1000 mg - for progesterone
  
• Brewers yeast (don’t know the exact dosage, cause mine are in a pill form, I take about 200% of the recommended daily dosage though)
  
• Saw Palmetto extract 1000 mg
  
• Folic acid 800 mcg
  
• Iron infusion 
  
• Fenugreek extract (50% saponins) 1500 mg
  
• Vitex extract with dong Quai (there are 300 mg of Vitex and 150 mg Dong Quai in 1 pill, I take 3 pills)
  
• Calcium D Glucorate 1000 mg
  
• Progesterone cream (1-1,5 tbsp) 
  
• Magnesium (for reducing stress)
  
• Ashwaganda (for reducing stress), didn’t start yet
  
• Shatavari (after I fix my low progesterone)
  
• Rhodiola quadrifida (hormone balancing herb; also after I fix my low progesterone because it’s highly phytoestrogenic) 
  

So I have the following questions:

1. Do I need to buy Pueraria Mirifica now or should I fix my low progesterone first? I don’t want to have severe estrogen dominance, so I’m a bit worried about taking it now
   
2. Do I need to cycle Vitex just as I cycle progesterone cream? 
   
3. When exactly should I apply progesterone cream so it doesn’t hurt my ovulation? I always start applying it around the 13th-14th day of my cycle, but my gynecologist said that I might have late ovulation, so I’m a bit confused about that 
   
4. What other herbs should I consider taking? 
   
5. Are the dosages of the herbs that I’m taking enough or should I increase/decrease something? 
   

Also what brands of Progesterone Cream and Pueraria Mirifica do you recommend?

Thank you so much in advance! Your help will be much appreciated! 

[surferjoe2007]

Hey, Joe! So sorry for such a late response, I was so busy and stressed the past month I’ll follow your instructions and get back with an update as soon as I notice some progress. 

I also redid all the hormonal tests about a week ago, so here are the results after 2 months of using progesterone cream and 2 weeks of saw palmetto, Vitex, MSM, Fenugreek extract:


Folic acid: 3.3 (recommended ranges: 3.0-17.0) 
Ferritin: 13.1 (recommended ranges: 15.0-150.0)
Free T3: 3.53 (recommended ranges: 2.56-5.01)
Free T4: 1.44 (recommended ranges: 0.8-2.10)
TSH: 4.360 (recommended ranges: 0.27-4.2). 
Androstenedione: 2.46 (recommended ranges: 0.40-4.95) 
Estradiol: 151 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 43,8-211,0)
Progesterone: 5.55 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 1.7-27.00)
17-OH Progesterone: 2.29 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 1.00-4.51)
Cortisol: 10.1 (recommended ranges for day-time testing: 2.3-11.9)
DHEA-S: 5.34 (recommended ranges: 1.77-9.99)
Testosterone: 0.260 (recommended ranges: 0.084-0.481)
Free testosterone: 1.28 (recommended ranges: 0.2-2)
Free androgen index: 2.9 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 0.8-11)
Sex hormone-binding globulin: 31 (recommended ranges for luteal phase: 18-144)
DHT: 129 (recommended ranges: <596) 
LH: 7.51 (recommended ranges for the follicular phase: 2.4-12.6)
FSH: 4.83 (recommended ranges for the follicular phase: 3.5-12.5)
Prolactin: 19.7 (recommended ranges: 6-29.9)

I was diagnosed with subclinical hypothyroidism. This thyroid disfunction is probably caused by chronic stress, so it’s no surprise that my progesterone is low. I’ve consulted with both a gynecologist and endocrinologist and they recommended me to fix my thyroid and iron deficiency issues first and then my progesterone will raise pretty quickly by itself.

So this will be my hormone balancing and NBE program: 

• Iodine + selenium; arctic kelp - for my hypothyroidism 
  
• Vitamin C 1000 mg - for progesterone
  
• Vitamin E 1000 mg - for progesterone
  
• Brewers yeast (don’t know the exact dosage, cause mine are in a pill form, I take about 200% of the recommended daily dosage though)
  
• Saw Palmetto extract 1000 mg
  
• Folic acid 800 mcg
  
• Iron infusion 
  
• Fenugreek extract (50% saponins) 1500 mg
  
• Vitex extract with dong Quai (there are 300 mg of Vitex and 150 mg Dong Quai in 1 pill, I take 3 pills)
  
• Calcium D Glucorate 1000 mg
  
• Progesterone cream (1-1,5 tbsp) 
  
• Magnesium (for reducing stress)
  
• Ashwaganda (for reducing stress), didn’t start yet
  
• Shatavari (after I fix my low progesterone)
  
• Rhodiola quadrifida (hormone balancing herb; also after I fix my low progesterone because it’s highly phytoestrogenic) 
  

So I have the following questions:

1. Do I need to buy Pueraria Mirifica now or should I fix my low progesterone first? I don’t want to have severe estrogen dominance, so I’m a bit worried about taking it now
   
2. Do I need to cycle Vitex just as I cycle progesterone cream? 
   
3. When exactly should I apply progesterone cream so it doesn’t hurt my ovulation? I always start applying it around the 13th-14th day of my cycle, but my gynecologist said that I might have late ovulation, so I’m a bit confused about that 
   
4. What other herbs should I consider taking? 
   
5. Are the dosages of the herbs that I’m taking enough or should I increase/decrease something? 
   

Also what brands of Progesterone Cream and Pueraria Mirifica do you recommend?

Thank you so much in advance! Your help will be much appreciated! 

Since your progesterone is so low I’d leave out PM and/or use more PC.  The last 10-14 days of your cycle is good for PC to avoid delaying your ovulation and therefore delaying your period.  10 days is least likely to overlap with ovulation.  Ainterol or purafem are a couple good PMs (though you might not want any yet).  Vitex doesn’t need to be cycled.  Any PC with progesterone on the ingredients is good.  One with 50 or 75 mg per pump is more convenient to use.  You may want 75-150 mg or possibly more later due to your imbalance.  I have more tips in my signature program, mostly for the food items.

[honey_bunny3456]

Thank you so much, Joe! I highly appreciate your help and support!