09-06-2011, 21:05
Okay I see, thanks for the link. By the way, since I'm on BCP, I don't need to switch herbs during cycle and I guess I'm not the only one, luckily, it's way easier !
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10-06-2011, 19:40
Hi all. I think I know of a few Asian supermarkets that might have the herbs I need based on what you have both said.
Thanks for the link Isabel. I’m get quite confused with hormonal stuff. I know when something doesn’t agree, I have epic breakouts but this suggests to me that I may have a hormone imbalance however when I don’t do anything and let my body be I am absolutely fine. I was on Microgynon 30 birth control pills and I really suffered, not just bad skin but awfully dark moods. Equally I really suffered taking fenugreek. I discovered pretty quickly that I don’t respond well to it but as I had a whole bottle of tablets I decided to take the highest recommended dose each day to finish the bottle quickly, which was 6 tablets a day, 610mg each. My skin was just awful however I had epic growing pains the whole time I was using them. I found a birth control pill that I agreed with – Yasmin. I found that to really work. I don’t really know the make up of these pills are but perhaps a bit of research into this may help to uncover herbs that may help. Also identify what the imbalance is.
So if I were on a BCP I would have to worry about what I was taking? Interesting makes me think about taking them again.
Actually Microgynon 30 bumped me up to a C cup/maintained my C cup as I slimed.
Yasmin didn’t help in that department at all.
I was also ok on kelp and ok on fennel but I took neither for as long as the fenugreek or in such dosages. I was on about 3 cups of fennel tea daily and 3 kelp tablets.
It’s all this sort of thing that has turned the me to the noogleberry and pumping. I will take collagen supplements and protein to support the growth but its external and it seems a safer option for me.
However your advice about taking liquorish in the later half of my cycle may be the answer. It could be a periodic boost to the program each month.
Thanks for the link Isabel. I’m get quite confused with hormonal stuff. I know when something doesn’t agree, I have epic breakouts but this suggests to me that I may have a hormone imbalance however when I don’t do anything and let my body be I am absolutely fine. I was on Microgynon 30 birth control pills and I really suffered, not just bad skin but awfully dark moods. Equally I really suffered taking fenugreek. I discovered pretty quickly that I don’t respond well to it but as I had a whole bottle of tablets I decided to take the highest recommended dose each day to finish the bottle quickly, which was 6 tablets a day, 610mg each. My skin was just awful however I had epic growing pains the whole time I was using them. I found a birth control pill that I agreed with – Yasmin. I found that to really work. I don’t really know the make up of these pills are but perhaps a bit of research into this may help to uncover herbs that may help. Also identify what the imbalance is.
So if I were on a BCP I would have to worry about what I was taking? Interesting makes me think about taking them again.
Actually Microgynon 30 bumped me up to a C cup/maintained my C cup as I slimed.
Yasmin didn’t help in that department at all.
I was also ok on kelp and ok on fennel but I took neither for as long as the fenugreek or in such dosages. I was on about 3 cups of fennel tea daily and 3 kelp tablets.
It’s all this sort of thing that has turned the me to the noogleberry and pumping. I will take collagen supplements and protein to support the growth but its external and it seems a safer option for me.
However your advice about taking liquorish in the later half of my cycle may be the answer. It could be a periodic boost to the program each month.
11-06-2011, 08:03
Hi Maz,
Sorry I took some time before getting back to you. And so sorry to read fenugreek and bcp gave you such a hard time, first time around.
I think I can explain most of what happened, I will address the issues in the order of your post, and refer to your program thread here and there. For a start, you are one healthy girl, and your cycle looks perfectly normal. But yes, you should be careful in the choice of your bcp, and you should take some precautions when taking high doses of FG.
I don't think you have a hormone imbalance between estrogen and progestins. The only thing that happens is that your testosterone goes through the roof whenever you change something. That too is perfectly normal, and adding an anti-androgen to your routine should take care of it.
Congratulations for still growing on 3660 mg/day of FG! Most women cannot take more than 3000 without growth stalling. Wahaika explains what happens in this thread:
http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=3029
Your body reacts to the FG by making more estrogen, which makes your breasts grow. However, when your body makes estrogen, it makes it from testosterone. This means your body cannot decide to make more estrogen without increasing testosterone first.
When your testosterone increases, more of it will also inevitably be converted to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which is what causes the breakouts. An anti-androgen stops the conversion of testosterone to DHT, and stops the breakouts. The most popular anti-androgens on this forum are saw palmetto berries (in the Greenbush kit), and the combination of barley, vitamin B12, and zinc (in Wonderup and Eve M's program).
There are also alternatives:
licorice tea
spearmint tea
peppermint tea is also an anti-androgen, and more estrogenic too
stinging nettle root
pygeum bark
pumpkin seed oil
borage oil (against hair loss, probably not so effective agains breakouts)
Secoisolariciresinol diglucoside (SDG), the main lignan in flax seed (linseed)
Beta Sitosterol (the fytosterol in stinging nettle root)
Which anti-androgens help best against breakouts, is discussed on the acne forum:
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Natural...27437.html
Stay away from oats and maca root without taking an anti-androgen: they boost testosterone.
About bcp. Microgynon 30 and Yasmin are both combination pills, which means there is a progestin in them, and an estrogen. The idea is that they should not disturb your natural hormone balance that way. Only, your body appears to respond extremely well to subtle hormonal changes, so you should be careful. The estrogen in both pills is 30 micrograms of ethinylestradiol. At this dose, it appears to trigger your body to produce even more estrogen, much like the FG does. Hence the dark moods, the breakouts, and the breast growth. The progestins in both pills are different. Progestins have a tendency to stop NBE. Apparently, for you, the one in Microgynon 30 doesn't, and the one in Yasmin does. Consequently, you don't have dark moods, breakouts, or breast growth on Yasmin. The fact that two pills, the only difference between which is the progestin, have such different effects, suggests you might try licorice, which is both anti-androgen and progestin. If it makes breakouts worse or stops NBE, don't worry, and try another anti-androgen from the list above.
Kelp stimulates the thyroid, which helps weight control. That's probably why your body responds so well to exercise and diet changes. Don't worry or beat yourself up about not doing enough: certainly as long as you take the kelp, a little will do.
Fennel makes your breasts grow by stimulating your body to make more prolactin, which stimulates milk production. This does not affect estrogen or testosterone, which is why it doesn't cause breakouts. FG also stimulates prolactin, but at the same time the right dose (3000-4000 mg for you), it will also stimulate your body's own estrogen production. If you don't want to go through the trouble of balancing estrogen and anti-androgens, you may want to try other herbs that work in the same way as fennel: aniseed (like Onicemile), blessed thistle, basil, dill, wild cumin, nigella sativa.
About what to take in which part of the cycle, Ginie is much more knowledgeable than I am. Don't give up too soon: it also took her a few changes in theory to get it right. But she and Chiyomilk have shown that it is indeed possible to work with your cycle to achieve better results.
Keep going: I admire your energy, I mean doing herbs as well as hypnosis as noogling as exercise as picking the right bcp!
Sorry I took some time before getting back to you. And so sorry to read fenugreek and bcp gave you such a hard time, first time around.
I think I can explain most of what happened, I will address the issues in the order of your post, and refer to your program thread here and there. For a start, you are one healthy girl, and your cycle looks perfectly normal. But yes, you should be careful in the choice of your bcp, and you should take some precautions when taking high doses of FG.
I don't think you have a hormone imbalance between estrogen and progestins. The only thing that happens is that your testosterone goes through the roof whenever you change something. That too is perfectly normal, and adding an anti-androgen to your routine should take care of it.
Congratulations for still growing on 3660 mg/day of FG! Most women cannot take more than 3000 without growth stalling. Wahaika explains what happens in this thread:
http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=3029
Your body reacts to the FG by making more estrogen, which makes your breasts grow. However, when your body makes estrogen, it makes it from testosterone. This means your body cannot decide to make more estrogen without increasing testosterone first.
When your testosterone increases, more of it will also inevitably be converted to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which is what causes the breakouts. An anti-androgen stops the conversion of testosterone to DHT, and stops the breakouts. The most popular anti-androgens on this forum are saw palmetto berries (in the Greenbush kit), and the combination of barley, vitamin B12, and zinc (in Wonderup and Eve M's program).
There are also alternatives:
licorice tea
spearmint tea
peppermint tea is also an anti-androgen, and more estrogenic too
stinging nettle root
pygeum bark
pumpkin seed oil
borage oil (against hair loss, probably not so effective agains breakouts)
Secoisolariciresinol diglucoside (SDG), the main lignan in flax seed (linseed)
Beta Sitosterol (the fytosterol in stinging nettle root)
Which anti-androgens help best against breakouts, is discussed on the acne forum:
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Natural...27437.html
Stay away from oats and maca root without taking an anti-androgen: they boost testosterone.
About bcp. Microgynon 30 and Yasmin are both combination pills, which means there is a progestin in them, and an estrogen. The idea is that they should not disturb your natural hormone balance that way. Only, your body appears to respond extremely well to subtle hormonal changes, so you should be careful. The estrogen in both pills is 30 micrograms of ethinylestradiol. At this dose, it appears to trigger your body to produce even more estrogen, much like the FG does. Hence the dark moods, the breakouts, and the breast growth. The progestins in both pills are different. Progestins have a tendency to stop NBE. Apparently, for you, the one in Microgynon 30 doesn't, and the one in Yasmin does. Consequently, you don't have dark moods, breakouts, or breast growth on Yasmin. The fact that two pills, the only difference between which is the progestin, have such different effects, suggests you might try licorice, which is both anti-androgen and progestin. If it makes breakouts worse or stops NBE, don't worry, and try another anti-androgen from the list above.
Kelp stimulates the thyroid, which helps weight control. That's probably why your body responds so well to exercise and diet changes. Don't worry or beat yourself up about not doing enough: certainly as long as you take the kelp, a little will do.
Fennel makes your breasts grow by stimulating your body to make more prolactin, which stimulates milk production. This does not affect estrogen or testosterone, which is why it doesn't cause breakouts. FG also stimulates prolactin, but at the same time the right dose (3000-4000 mg for you), it will also stimulate your body's own estrogen production. If you don't want to go through the trouble of balancing estrogen and anti-androgens, you may want to try other herbs that work in the same way as fennel: aniseed (like Onicemile), blessed thistle, basil, dill, wild cumin, nigella sativa.
About what to take in which part of the cycle, Ginie is much more knowledgeable than I am. Don't give up too soon: it also took her a few changes in theory to get it right. But she and Chiyomilk have shown that it is indeed possible to work with your cycle to achieve better results.
Keep going: I admire your energy, I mean doing herbs as well as hypnosis as noogling as exercise as picking the right bcp!
11-06-2011, 15:21
Isabelle, you are fantastic thank you so much for giving such an in depth response and taking the time to explain it all.
I had started gathering some info on all this but you broke it down so well. Thank you. I had put the information out there but not expected anyone to run a diagnostic. It is very much appreciated. I will be saving your post. I wish you the very best with your journey.
I’m really surprised to see peppermint on your list. I used to be a big drinker of the stuff but I stopped replenishing my supply, not for any reason in particular.
I gather the answer is combine FG with an anti-androgen I think if I go ahead with this will chose liquorish and peppermint. Having done some research I am more aware of the changes in hormones ands what spikes were. Your original suggestion to take the liquorish towards the later half of the cycle makes a lot more sense to me now. It might be worth reserving the herbs above for that time.
Thanks to the links you provided and the explanation of fennel, I think it will become a permanent herb. I have also found aniseed sold in an Indian supermarket which I could add to the fennel intake. I need something that I can take permanently which will help NBE without the issue of hormones, which these do.
The others will be an experiment. Introducing one at a time and low doses will probably be the way to do it. I may try peppermint first then liquorish and finally fenugreek.
I had started gathering some info on all this but you broke it down so well. Thank you. I had put the information out there but not expected anyone to run a diagnostic. It is very much appreciated. I will be saving your post. I wish you the very best with your journey.
I’m really surprised to see peppermint on your list. I used to be a big drinker of the stuff but I stopped replenishing my supply, not for any reason in particular.
I gather the answer is combine FG with an anti-androgen I think if I go ahead with this will chose liquorish and peppermint. Having done some research I am more aware of the changes in hormones ands what spikes were. Your original suggestion to take the liquorish towards the later half of the cycle makes a lot more sense to me now. It might be worth reserving the herbs above for that time.
Thanks to the links you provided and the explanation of fennel, I think it will become a permanent herb. I have also found aniseed sold in an Indian supermarket which I could add to the fennel intake. I need something that I can take permanently which will help NBE without the issue of hormones, which these do.
The others will be an experiment. Introducing one at a time and low doses will probably be the way to do it. I may try peppermint first then liquorish and finally fenugreek.
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