[beachbumbythesea]

HI Isabelle,

Ok I get it and cool I can do the PM and aguajie..Hey Dr. Oz is talking about hormones..k..got to go back and watch...

Thank you

[Prettymama]

Thanks again in 2 weeks ill remeasure an do update pics

[Isabelle]

You're welcome.

No pain, no gain. Nothing since this post:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9181&pid=32391&highlight=door#pid32391

I've been wondering about cycling. I got into cycling discussions here
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8294&pid=31824&highlight=MoK217#pid31824
and here
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9142&pid=32187&highlight=Bela#pid32187
But the first cycle I mapped is this one for Susan:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8440&pid=32874&highlight=caps#pid32874

Alexis' question
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9298&pid=32953&highlight=Alexis#pid32953
got me thinking again. Should men cycle too?
Women get beautiful breasts in the tide of becoming estrogen dominant and progesterone dominant every 4 weeks. Breasts get one week rest, one week high estrogen, one week rest, one week high progesterone. During the "rest" weeks, a lot happens in the uterus, of course. A girl is never done

The real growth must be happening in the estrogen week, but women notice it when they swell in the progesterone week. The swelling seems to "become permanent" over time. In reality, the week on high estrogen must have caused more growth, but the swelling, or certainly the progesterone, develops other parts of the breasts, and rounds them.

I have hops for phyto-estrogen, and FG for swelling. Should I cycle them? Two weeks hops, two weeks FG is not hard to remember. Should I add a phyto-progestin like fennel tea in the second FG week? It would stop growth, but round them. Certainly since fennel is also a galactogogue, like FG. Something to try end September: the main question is of course if growth picks up after 5 days without fennel. Why wouldn't it

[Pansy-Mae]

...got me thinking again. Should men cycle too?
...The real growth must be happening in the estrogen week,''' In reality, the week on high estrogen must have caused more growth,

... Should I cycle them? Two weeks hops, two weeks FG is not hard to remember.

Isabelle, FWIW, I came to that same conclusion a while ago and as far as I can tell it does work. I'm on PM + SP, but forgetting about the SP for the sake of this discussion, I do a few days on 6 x 500mg PM per day, followed by a couple of weeks or so on 4 x500mg followed by about a week on 2 x 500mg before bouncing straight up to 6 again. This is intended to roughly mimic the estrogen output of a GG.

I say " a few days" because 6 x500mg gives me a headache so exactly how long I'm on 6 depends on how bad the headache is! However I have noticed that both on the up side and again on the down side of the peak I get increased growing pains.

I don't do anything with progesterone because I've read that it can be counter-productive in the growth process and also because it isn't naturally produced until normal female puberty breast development is almost complete and only comes into play when milk production is starting to become viable and then as you say it amongst other things causes rounding out. I'm not yet big enough to feel I've reached that stage.

Pansy Mae

[Isabelle]

Thank you Pansy-Mae,

That explains a lot for me. I certainly haven't reached my target size, so I better forget about phyto-progestins for now. Come to think of it, I don't remember growing on anything like fennel or red clover.

You had pains on both the up and the down side of the estrogen peak: that's a very important observation for me. When I grew most, I was at a party every week-end. I took little at the beginning of the week, doubled hops 3 days before the party, doubled fenugreek on the day of the party, and then dropped both. So that may have been a very efficient cycle.

I took three or four 1,000 mg softgels of fish oil on party days too, and one softgel in between. Made my skin shine. Never thought that would have contributed to NBE either. Until GorgeousBlonde's post this morning:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9222&pid=32958&highlight=fish+oil#pid32958

On days like today, I think it will take forever to really find out what's important and what's not. But hey, we're getting there

[Pansy-Mae]

...You had pains on both the up and the down side of the estrogen peak: that's a very important observation for me. ...

There is a link on another recent thread to something that Wahakia wrote on another site( http://beboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Routines&action=display&thread=3029 ) and he seems to suggest that it is, at least in part, the level variation that the body responds to as much as actual dosage because that keeps the negative feedback mechanisms from kicking in and creating a stall.

Pansy Mae

[Isabelle]

Thank you Pansy-Mae,

What you add is the experience that both the up and down slopes have the same effect in NBE. It could mean that weekly PM cycles are long enough, but let's not hurry

Made me wonder if maca should be cycled. I follow Prettymama's scheme of 6 weeks ramp up, 1 week off. The only thing I found so far is these people did their experiment for 6 weeks:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf...27-3-5.pdf

I'm also looking for what maca does to mood. 3,500 mg reduced anxiety and depression in postmenopausal women. They were tested after 6 and 12 weeks by the way:
http://journals.lww.com/menopausejournal...on.24.aspx

In mice, antidepressant activity showed after 3 weeks:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/6/23/

These experiments are cruel

[chiquitabella]

Hi Isabelle, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. I'll do it here rather than PMing you so maybe it will help someone else.
I am taking a break from Wahaika's program for a week because I've been gaining too much weight and not been able to take it off. And also I literally spent a whole day crying. So I just wanted to see if it was because of the herbs, or if I've not been diligent with my diet and just genuinely unhappy lately.
I found a way to get my PM powder to mix into one of my lotions, I just dissolved it in water first. So I've been applying that topically during my break.
When I go back to the herbs, is my applying PM topically still ok to do? I don't know if what you said in another thread about not taking PM and WY together was just for internal. This whole NBE is becoming confusing to me!
Sorry for the rambling. I'd love to hear your opinions because I really respect you. I have not added in hops yet but I'm timid to add PM since everyone says no and makes it sound like if I do add it (internally) that my boobs will explode or something! LOL
So, in short, taking a week break from Wahaika's program, will external PM and internal herbs be ok once I start again?
Thanks!

[Isabelle]

Thank you Chiquitabella,

On my break, I cried too. It was worst at two weeks off herbs. I chalked it up to testosterone first, then progesterone:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=30744&highlight=list+AND+progesterone#pid30744
Use the list of symptoms in this thread to check for yourself.

You can also try dr. Lee's hormone imbalance test, but symptoms lists are better suited to track daily variations.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=31096&highlight=Lee+test#pid31096

If you know what the imbalance is, you'll know how to start up in a week. Don't start with the hops: it will make you cry even more. By the way, it's perfectly normal to gain weight on an herbal program. So far only lled34aa reported growth and weight loss at the same time.

It's a great thing you discovered how to make a pm topical without going through liquid extraction first: you will save many people a lot of time

I'm not sure about all this talk of not taking PM with anything either. The only precaution for which there is a reason, is not taking PM with a weaker phyto-estrogen. The idea is that you use PM more efficiently if all estrogen receptors are available for PM binding to them. But my chemistry gut tells me that estrogen receptors, when flooded with PM, will release the weaker phyto-estrogen. It may take a while, and you may blow a few bucks worth of PM. So be it. Besides, hops is not even a weaker phyto-estrogen either.

I was only advising a precaution: WY and PM will strengthen each other. I wasn't trying to say it won't work. Google a list of estrogen dominance symptoms and you'll know what to watch out for. If your estrogen dominance becomes too bad, back off PM and/or WY.

Then there are the herbs that increase insulin sensitivity and prolactin: fenugreek, goat's rue, and nigella sativa. A week ago, using them with PM was taboo. Now lled34aa and Gorgeous Blonde use goat's rue with PM, although GB cycles them. This morning I started a thread on a little known PM brand, Perfect Curve, and in the first post I linked a forum thread about experience with Perfect Curve and fenugreek.

If you want to stay on the safe side and cycle, scroll up a few posts to where I linked all recent dicussions about cycling. It will use your herbs more efficiently. The important thing, however, is to take signals like a whole day of crying seriously. Find out what the imbalance is. Then start an herb that improves it.

Susan convinced me to take maca to improve my mood after too much hops. In IdreamofD's program thread, we just found out that PM may be an anti-depressant too. Just post problems that come up: somebody will have an answer. Faith and caution go a long way.

[chiquitabella]

Well, I took that hormone test and it is overwhelmingly excess estrogen. I don't know how much stock I put into an online hormone test but it sounds accurate. So now I don't know what to do? I'm doing some research now to see what my next step should be. Thank you for your help.