[itsjust4fun91]

Follicular phase:PM pill, PM cream, placenta, hyaluronic acid, collagen, MSM, Aumenti, vitamin C, whey protein shake, calcium (I will try to drink as much Contrex as I can but it doesn't taste very good).

Luteal phase:Placenta, Hyaluronic acid, collagen, MSM, Aumenti, Vitamin E, progesterone cream, whey protein shake, maybe PM cream but I'm not sure about this one.

I know like all of us, your program changed several times according to need, but I was wondering if this one was the one that worked best for you? I like the idea of altering pm and pc during the month. It makes sense to me.

Also I decided to go with the siriporn brand of pm, but was not able to find in your program if you followed their directions when you changed over or if you increased it? I ask because their website says that each capsule is 100mg and premenstrual women should take one a day and post menopausal women 2 a day. That seems like a small amount after hearing what the other gals have said they are taking and I also thought at one point I read on one of the boards that you take 400mg a day, so I wasn't sure about the dose.


Thanks, Mel

[Ginie]

Hi Mel, hm.. I think this is the one. Plus NB. But I wasn't using Aumenti all that much, PM lotion - this is what I used instead throughout the cycle. I also didn't drink shakes regularly but I try and improve here because I feel the difference when I drink them.

I will type here what it says on the bottle of siriporn: "Pre-menstrual women: take 1 to 2 capsules daily beginning the first day of menstrual cycle. Use 15 days and stop. Repeat the process the next menstrual cycle. Failure to follow this protocol may result in irregular menstrual cycle."

I was taking 1 capsule in the morning and 1 in the evening. On empty stomach. You need Ca supplement or lots of milk products in your diet. For some reason PM works better for NBE when combined with Ca. I actually read somewhere that Ca is essential for a good breast development during puberty (I always hated milk and milk products!).

Now I'm more in maintenance phase, I only take 1 capsule in the evening. Last month I wasn't taking PM pills at all, I was only using cream and other supplements. I still grew.

Now about 400mg. It was when I was taking St.Herb. Their PM is (IMO) weaker and their pills contain other "tropical herbs", it's not pure, besides, the dosages are different (200mg each pill as far as I can remember). They recommend up to 800mg.

I know I take less than all other girls and guys here, they all take 800mg-1500mg. But I'm pleased with my results (well, actually, I'm shocked, surprised, happy, and.. not sure if I like bigger boobs - these are all my emotions about it). I had a very bad experience with common herbs which I used in high doses, I stalled very quickly, I reached the point of estrogen dominance, had to fight it for half a year. During that time I was using PC and I grew on it! I know Wahaika says it is impossible but I did! Since then I believe (or I know) that progesterone is equally important for breast development. Maybe it made my estrogen receptors more sensitive and I grew. I read in some articles that small breasts are not always due to low estrogen, most often there's enough of it floating around, the main reason is that receptors in breasts are not sensitive enough to it.

I also think that it is good to use PC just to avoid estrogen overload. PC will resensitize your estrogen receptors so you don't develop resistance to PM.

PC I use every other month or every 2 months or when I feel I need it. For example, I had a non-ovulatory cycle after 3 months on PM (according to my BBT chart) so I decided to use PC 2 months in a row but then I skipped it for 2 months. So you can start without PC and add it following your BBT charts.

If you want quicker NBE results you can try and add common herbs in luteal phase like Chiyumilk did (I follow her program). But still it is better to use PC at least occasionally just to be on a safe side. Maybe I could grow faster if I wasn't using PC, I don't know, but I preferred being safe.

Also if you use Siriporn keep in mind that their PM is stronger so you really don't need huge doses like 1000mg. Start like I did - 1 capsule in the morning and 1 in the evening. Then if you feel good you can increase it to 2 capsuls twice a day, that's the maximum they recommend.

Good luck!

[itsjust4fun91]

Thanks for clearing it up for me. Everyone has so many different programs going on and dosages that it's hard to really get it locked down to what is a happy medium. I like the idea of the lower dosage just because my top priority in this is trying to postpone my early menopause. If I get growth while doing it fantastic. I did also get the cream from them as well to rub in just in case the low dose wouldn't be enough for me and to up my odds of some breast growth.

Since my estrogen is so low right now, I do kind of wonder if I might need a higher dose initially just to get my estrogen up, but like you I like to er on the side of less is more and go from there. So finding my happy medium will be a work in progress for sure.

Thanks, Mel

[Ginie]

Do you really have ALL types of estrogen low?? What is your BMI?

[itsjust4fun91]

My bmi is about 23 according to the calculator. I went from 137 up to 150 suddenly when I used chantix last summer. I got back down to 144 but but I seem to be stuck there no matter what I do. though if I don't watch what I eat it goes up fast, which sucks. The biggest thing I don't like about the hormone drop is what use to be a toned body suddenly sent soft and dimpled. I lost a lot of firmness throughout my body. I guess that is typical of low estrogen.

When I started the chantix I began having horrible constant headaches on it, so stopped after 2 months once I was certain I was past the smoking hump again. The only problem is the headaches didn't stop this time when I stopped the chantix. (It was my 3rd time using it.) anyway, a full year of doctors and test and misery and finally found out most of my endocrine related hormones were shot.

My estrone is 6 --normal range is 30-58 pg/ml it is made from adrenal hormones

My estriol is up to 7 now after using hrt for awhile, it was a 4. the normal range is 12-25 pg/ml

my estradiol bounces between 1 and 4 from hormone test to test. I think it depends on where the others are sitting and whats converting and producing where.
normal would be 3-16

progesterone was 30 on last check, it should have been 65-500

oddly enough my testosterone and dhea are normal. So I'm more dude that my hubby currently. lol

Anyway, I had never heard that chantix has been found to start an early menopause in some women. I already had been told I might be starting early, but it was minor symptoms until the chantix. Turns ou there are alot of women in their late 30's suddenly in early menopause after using it. I also found out that it's been found to damage the adrenal glands and cause insuffiencey. I got both so double whammy. I'm really glad I wasn't on nbe at the time or I might have blamed it on it. I had been off of BB for 4 months when I started the chantix and began having symptoms.

Anyway, my symptoms have been improving since beginning a adrenal insuffiecency regiment and progesterone. I plan to have a new hormone test done this week on day 20 of my cycle to see how much of an improvement there has been.

So you can see why I liked the idea of something to cycle with pc at the same time. I need it all and so far it sounds like this is as good as hrt, which I was on, but my doc took from me in an attempt to bully me to do things the way she wanted. I'm too pigheaded for that to work, lol, not that it's a good thing, but I'm determined to find another solution other than her way.

Thanks, Mel

[Ginie]

I see. They should really take this drug off the shelves. Imaging how many women are going to suffer! What if they all combine their forces and sue those companies which put the drug out there without a thorough testing!

Very important - what is you FSH level? Doctors say it is the first marker of menopause (if it's high). Do this tests asap and see if your ovaries really start to fail.

I see why you want to supplement PM with PC. If only your progesterone was normal then you could use PM only. But here's what I think (and this is ONLY my theory). When your estrogen is so low then you probably don't ovulate. When you start PM you will raise estrogen and will start ovulating. If you ovulate regularly then there's no need to supplement with PC because corpus luteum produces enough progesterone!

You should also read more about EFAs and their role in producing sex hormones. And probably start taking EFAs asap.

Do you exercise? If yes then you shouldn't do aerobics, only weigh lifting.

If your estrogen is low then your body doesn't retain water, this is why you think that you "lost" your toned body. Drink more water (if your kidney are fine) and use double amount of collagen. I use Meiji because it is of marine source. MSM will help you tighten up skin (use msm lotion).

[itsjust4fun91]

I ordered msm yesterday, so we are on the same page here. You know when I took chantix, I was so busy watching for all the other crazy symptoms they warned everyone about, that I never once associated the headaches with until months later and then my docs still seemed doubtful that it was from that, so I spent this past year being tested and prodded as they looked into every area they could. It wasn't until I found the studies online and showed them the connections that they began to agree, but all they want to do is treat the symptoms and not the cause. I'll admit, my pre existing health issues probably haven't helped but to make symptoms worse, but I wish they knew more about their drugs to be able to warn better against some people using them.

So I've had several FSH test during all this other testing bcause with my other hormone levels, they diagnosed with menopause, or rather peri menopause, but then my FSH levels were always fine, which confused them.
All three test I have a copy of say
FSH 4.4
luteinizing hormone 9.8

weird huh?

I think it's time to buckle down and really learn about all the different things that contribute to our hormone load, for example a lot of people don't know about the adrenals making estrone, ect. I'm really looking forward to my next hormone test though. I can feel a difference just in the last month addressing my adrenals and my my vitamin defiency didn't know I had.

Thanks for all the help, you've provided. I really appreciate it.

Mel

[Ginie]

But that means you're NOT in menopause, you're not even near it. Your ovaries are not failing, you're producing hormones, just very very little. It really is frustrating to see how our doctors treat only symptoms! I will send you a private message and will pop up later in your own thread.

[sweetpea]

My cycle was 4 days shorter which for me is usually the sign of too much estrogen. I wasn't using PC this cycle.

I just started taking Siriporn PM and my cycle was so much shorter than usual! It was only 3 weeks instead of 5 or 6 weeks. Last cycle I started by taking 2 pills in the morning and 2 at night. I didn't get any growth so this is my second cycle and I doubled the dosage to 4 pills in the morning and 4 at night. Do you think I actually had too much estrogen and should have lowered my dose instead of upping it? Does my normally long cycle mean I am estrogen deficient? How can you tell if you need PC? I am thinking of adding that to my routine. Thank you, you seem so knowledgeable. I have no idea how to tell what my hormone levels are like.

[Ginie]

Hi Sweetpea, don't panic I don't know what went wrong, what changes took place in your body but for me yes, shorter cycle always meant high estrogen and very low progesterone. This may or may not be the case with you.

Only you can tell what's wrong with your cycle, start measuring your temperature (BBT charting) and will be able to tell yourself what's wrong. At the moment not even doctors will tell you what went wrong. This is why I keep repeating how important it is to start monitoring your BBT when you start PM. With PM it's not that simple. You were taking it 15 days but why 15? Why not 13 or 18? If you wanted to copy Chiyumilk's routine then you were supposed to take it until about ovulation time. Do you know when you ovulated? On day 15? Some women ovulate on day 14, some - on day 8! So without blood tests and ultrasound you won't be able to tell when you ovulated and what your hormonal status is today. You can try and help yourself by at least getting your chart. These charts are very easy to do and you can read and I'm sure you'll be able to read them yourself or you can ask me or somebody else on this forum.

About overdosing. In my opinion yes, you overdosed. Even 4 pills a day is really A LOT when it comes to Siriporn. I find that their PM is stronger than St.Herb, for eample. This is why they recommend a lower dose. I was taking 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening and still my cycle was shorter. Taking 8 pills a day in MY opinion is bad. I don't know how much damage to your own body you've done, you can consult a doctor. But since it's only has been one cycle then maybe you can try and repair things yourself by not taking PM orally, just use their cream (which btw is also very strong, so, don't overload on that too).

More doesn't mean better! In NBE it can even be dangerous!

If you want my theory about what went wrong then I can tell you this. I think you were supposed to ovulate before you stopped PM. Let's say on day 10. You continued taking PM and kept your estrogen so high that it cancelled ovulation. No ovulation -> low pregesterone. Then you stop taking PM, your estrogen level drops a little tricking your body to believe that this is a pre-menstrual drop of estrogen and - voilà here comes your period. This is just MY THEORY. Purely based on my own research and other user's complaints.

You really should stop overdosing on PM, do your BBT charts and see if you ovulate or not. Usually it will regulate itself in a few months.

I will copy this post in PM thread. I want others to be warned too.