[shortcake]

Well, Isabelle (and anyone else who's reading...),

The great stuff I had going on with Dandelion has sadly come to a halt. Not two hours after my last post, I came down with a pretty bad headache. (I swear, I need to keep my mouth shut with that. Everytime I get on here, raving that something hasn't given me headaches, I end up with a bad one just shortly after!) I tried Fennel tea, I tried Wild Yam (not really sure why), I tried Licorice... I cut back the amount of Dandelion I was taking... Nothing really helped and my soreness slowly went away. I have none whatsoever now. I'm still measuring 30 1/2" but I think I'm starting to deflate. I can see the difference and the measurement isn't as much of a "full" 30 1/2", if that makes sense. The headaches were strange. I had them every day, and I didn't even have that happen on WU or BO. It was like Dandelion was really potent for me.

I was set on doing exactly what you'd suggested with Dandelion but in light of all that, I think I'm going to give PM a try. I figured what the heck. I've already paid for it and don't have much to lose. I have little hope of it not making me feel miserable though, if I can't even tolerate Dandelion for more than 2 weeks. I'm definitely going to take very small doses. I've decided I won't use the Ro-Bust lotion at first. I'm going to have a tough enough time battling ED as it is; I may as well not potentially add to the problem.

If I can't tolerate PM, my next program will be this, posted on Wahaika's forum: http://nbelab.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nbetheory&action=display&thread=285 I already have everything I need for it except for GR, and as far as I know at this point I can tolerate those herbs pretty well. I know that some sort of cycling program is my only hope for growth. And if all else fails, maybe there's a chance I could respond to topicals alone since I seem to be so ridiculously sensitive to internals!

Thanks so much for your help, Isabelle. It's one thing to browse these forums and read what other people are doing and taking, but until you know why, and how everything works with your body and natural hormones, it's basically meaningless. You give us the "whys" and "hows" and I feel like I'm learning so much from you. It takes a while for it all to click and really sink in but I feel like I'm slowly getting it!

[Isabelle]

Thank you shortcake,

But you got me thinking, or even worried: dandelion. Why was the headache so difficult to stop?

[beachbumbythesea]

Thank you shortcake,

But you got me thinking, or even worried: dandelion. Why was the headache so difficult to stop?

Just my opinion, detox effects, usually the main one is headache and skin problems..if the digestive system is slow at eliminating poo then you get a back up of detoxins from the dandelion detoxing the body and it has nowhere to go except back into your body and recirculating..drink alot of water..think about the herbs like FG, FN, well most of the ones we take for NBE help the liver detox some, repair...well if your liver is toxic and you start the herbs you have 2 things happening some liver detox and hormone changes, IMO a double wammy for headaches and such.. that is why you need to start slow...IMO you have been doing this for a while but is your digestive system moving slow if so that maybe why your getting the headaches or hormones either way slow digestive system can put back into the system, I am also wondering the toxins my be going back into system and the liver has more clear some hormone receptors and gave you and big imbalance..just my opinion..If I were you I would stop all for a day or 2 just to clear you body, do a mini fast with alot of water, fruits, veggies..just go light, give your body a break from herbs, high protein that slow the digestive system down depending on what kind of proteins..so on..ok done rambling

[shortcake]

Isabelle,

That's a very good question! I sure wish I knew the answer. On Sunday the headache was really pretty bad and I had foggy thinking, despite the fact that I had taken less Dandelion on Saturday. I took only one early Sunday and then decided to stop taking it altogether due to the headache. By yesterday (Monday) morning the headache was gone and I was fine. Since I was feeling normal again I took only (no other supplements at all) one 1000mg Milk Thistle yesterday evening to at least continue with my liver cleanse. Felt fine, no headaches.

Today, just as an experiment, I took one Dandelion capsule. I should note that the days I had the bad headaches last week/weekend, all activity in my breasts also stopped. I was no longer feeling the tingles, aches, pains, etc. Today after taking the Dandelion, the sensations returned. I don't have a headache but my head feels a little heavy, if that makes sense.

When I began taking Dandelion, the instructions on the bottle stated to take up to four capsules twice a day for a total of eight. Fortunately I didn't go by that and instead ramped up, figuring out that my optimum dose was 3 capsules a day (a total of 1560mg). Past that I would get slight headaches, but I was also taking Milk Thistle regularly at that time. So I kept it at 3 and stopped taking Milk Thistle for the most part, and then started getting the sore, sensitive nipples. Then came the breast soreness. Next the headaches started and the soreness and sensations went away. So the best I can figure is that I was simply taking too much. And even though I was decreasing the amount of it that I was taking toward the end, it was still adding to what was already in my system, causing it to build and build. It took me completely stopping it to finally get relief. After that, it quickly went away. Still, it seems odd that just one herb at a normal dose would cause those symptoms for me so quickly. And why, if it's really affecting me that severely, does it take such a short time for me to feel normal again? If it was really that bad, I would think it should take a while to get rid of the symptoms. I seem to be hypersensitive to this, which is really quite frustrating. This didn't happen four years ago when I tried NBE so I can't figure out why it's happening now. Apparently my inner workings have shifted a little since then. Thank you for your concern.

If I may ask your opinion on something, would you recommend I try the program Wahaika came up with on his board http://nbelab.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nbetheory&action=display&thread=285 or try PM first, given my apparent sensitivity? Really the only reason I want to try PM first is just because I've paid for it and have it already... But I also have nearly everything I need for the other program, except for Goat's Rue which I can easily order now.


Susan,

Your explanation makes sense as well. This could very well be due to the toxins being released and circulating through me, and/or the new cleared estrogen receptors causing imbalance, especially since Dandelion is a phytoestrogen. One thing that made me think of was that toward the beginning of last week I was drinking loads of water. I was really focusing on Noogling and wanted to make sure I was getting enough to have great swelling. Toward the end of the week though, when I didn't have as much time for pumping, I stopped drinking as much water as well. I'm increasing that again starting today. My digestive system seems to be working ok in the sense that I'm very "regular". There could be other things going on with that though. I do think a colon cleanse would be a big help in general, as would a light fasting. Maybe that will be my next step. My period is due in five days (if it's on time) and then I wouldn't be starting PM until 8 days after that. So I've got some time. I'm willing to do just about anything that might help at this point! Thank you for your input. I'm glad things seem to be going well for you with your new program!

[Isabelle]

Hi shortcake,

I also believe part of the problem is caused by what Susan explains: if you need to cleanse your liver because you get estrogen dominant, dandelion and milk thistle will get estrogens out of your liver, but where do they go? And since dandelion and milk thistle are phyto-estrogens themselves, the estrogen dominance will likely become worse.

Male NBEers are not welcome on Wahaika's board. I can't see the program. Can you give an outline here?

[shortcake]

Oh gosh, I'm sorry Isabelle. I feel like an ass. I'll copy and paste the program here for you.

"For anyone interested in cycling, this is something that I was working on and came across. It is based on some research that I saw regarding breast size correlated to hormone levels among users vs. non users of BC. The type of BC was not discussed as I remember. I have my notes but not the research. I will see if I can locate it. Meanwhile, this is what I derived from it for a cycling program:

No ramp up.
Fenugreek 1000mg 3 times per day days 5-10 and 18-23
Saw Palmetto 1000mg 3 times per day on days 1 through midcycle.
Wild Yam 1000mg three times per day on days 18-23
Goat's Rue 1000mg 3 times per day on days 5-10

Massage still applies.
Supplements still apply.

See this study:
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/14...1.full.pdf "

[Isabelle]

Thank you shortcake,

It's zero phyto-estrogens during the natural estrogens peak on days 5-11. If this is when you become estrogen dominant, it may help you. If, however, you get the headaches just before and during your period, this will obviously not change much. But anyway, it'll be better than PM.

[chiquitabella]

Hey shortcake-
I started taking some dandelion root extract along with my FG/WY/SP because I was going to take a break and do a liver cleanse, but then I just started taking it at the same time, I was hoping it would clean my liver AND make my boobs grow lol. Anyways, I have had headaches the past several days and I couldn't figure out why! Now I am wondering if the dandelion root is the culprit. SO, I will not take it starting tomorrow and see if it helps. Maybe we are on to something! What? I don't know lol

[shortcake]

Isabelle,
That just might work for me then. On a regular NBE program I never get headaches before or during my period. It's only the day my period ends or the day after, and will sometimes come back off and on for about a week after. So it does seem that that's the time I become estrogen dominant (days 5-11). So I will give it a try. Am I understanding correctly that nothing would be taken from day 14 - day 18? It says SP runs till midcycle which I'm assuming means the day of ovulation. But then nothing again until day 18. Are there any changes you would make to that?

Do most people in the US use Motherlove brand Goat's Rue? That's about all I'm finding online. I've never been able to find any in local stores. Thanks for your input on this!

Chiquitabella,
That is really interesting! It's frustrating that it causes headaches because I was having promising results from taking that alone. Please keep me updated on if your headache goes away when you stop taking it! How much have you been taking? I can't believe the instructions on my bottle recommended taking 8 per day! I probably would have ended up in the emergency room with a migraine! Good luck to you!

[Isabelle]

Hi shortcake,

In a cycling program, I wouldn't take these herbs during ovulation, no. Maybe goat's rue, but then I don't really know if prolactin suppresses ovulation. I do know that too much of it can stop periods.

Most US users buy Motherlove, yes, but they have other formulations besides the extract, like gel capsules. I'm not surprised it's hard to find. It's on the Federal Noxious Weeds list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galega_officinalis
Being an old European herb lady, I sooo hate lists like this one

OK, sorry for venting. One ovulation hormone is LH, and vitex agnus castus (chaste tree berry) increases that. But don't go experimenting with that before you've got the other ducks in a row.