[soonenough]

Hi Isabelle,

I tried the ff:

GR tea in the morning
2.5 g FG noontime
2.5 g Hops evening

The above doses was effective, and I started the above combo in day 22 of my cyle. However, I experienced estrogen dominance symptoms on the above doses. I did however gain whatever it was I lost (breast size)when I stopped pm. I stopped the above herbs so I can take care of my weight gain; since then I went back slowly to my normal weight range through sensible eating and exercise, and only lost about 0.5" around the fullest breast part so far. Now, I'm ready to go try the above combo again.

I remember you said to counteract estrogen dominance is to increase FG intake. By how much do you suggest I increase my FG intake? I'm 47, 5'5 1.2", 126 lbs. (was up to 131 lb, yikes!). I never had the weight gain problem or the way the weight gain obstinately stayed and couldn't shake it off with pm or Greenbush Kit#2 combo.

THanks so much.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

I am too tired to read all the threads but will finish tomorrow when I am more awake I had to report to you what happened with me..well been with my man ...been busy..hehe..anyway..well hops may not be good for me and alfalfa maybe be too strong.. first with hops (I think it is the hops and maybe alfalfa) bringing on my rash and acne, since I stopped hops it is getting better and I have tried alfalfa 2 times this past month and not sure if that makes my acne worse or making come to the surface like a detox..but as for the alfalfa and not sure if this is what made this happen but I got my period like normal last month (it ended on Thanksgiving) then a week later I bleed for 3 days after taking alfalfa 1-2 days before the bleeding, it was light ..well not sure if the alfalfa triggered another another period but didnt have any other symptoms of a period..mentally felt great, no cramps, nothing odd actually I feel very good, some tiredness not alot..probably from being busy with my man which brings me to the other thought..would the bleeding be from becoming prego..? I am due for my period now ..last month I got it around the 21st or 22nd..ok back to the herbs..I stopped the hops and have been taking maca, FG, barley grass, GR, turmeric, and very little shave grass cause I am not sure what shave grass is doing as for the others I rotate them ..today I took none and tomorrow I will see how I feel....when I was taking hops I was doing a tea and drinking/eating it with juice and foods ..unless it was clearing my system out ..dont know but I got this effect when I drank beer.. I am thinking of keeping hops in only either very low dose everyday or just use it just when my period starts and only as a tea (does the tea have estrogen in it?).. also when I take alfalfa I get stomach pains..not sure if it is a cleansing effect or homone effect..also it seems also I get acne from alfalfa unless it is a cleansing effect..but I only took alfalfa as I said above and bleeding started (I stopped all herbs at that time except maca and FG in low dose then had nothing on the third day) then I tried alfalfa again a few days ago and it bothered me rash wise..so not sure about that stuff what and when to add it back, as for the barley grass, turermic, maca, GR,FG, FN actually I do the GR only at night and FN just before my period. when I was making hops, maca, turermic, FG, barley grass mix before I got the acne my skin was doing pretty good and chin hairs were really good..and I noticed doing a tea was better for me then eating it..I do have to say my acne did come on just last week which is just before my period also I feel that it was making me shed hair more..so maybe my hops was just to high along with maca ..so I am thinking tomorrow just do small doses of all and take it from there..oh I wasnt getting much if none at all tingling, some swelling from GR though..but not worried about that so much for some reason..my main goal now is my skin and hair...oh did for get to mention that I lacked on my supps...so that may have added to that delema..ok done for now..that you for your time..see you in the morn..

[Isabelle]

Hi Soonenough,

Congratulations with the weight loss

I take 5.4 g fenugreek with 2.4 g hops, and I never have symptoms of estrogen dominance. So doubling it will certainly be enough. I'm about to try out if less will do as well.

Fenugreek makes the pancreas secrete more insulin almost instantly. So taking the carbs in your diet together with the fenugreek may help in weight management. The insulin makes energy out of the carbs. I'm taking quite a bit of my carbs with the hops at night, and I have a feeling they just become fat during the night. I haven't lost any weight since I'm on this daily regimen.

[Isabelle]

Good morning Susan,

So happy you're back

I had to report to you what happened with me..well been with my man ...been busy..hehe

I thought you were

..anyway..well hops may not be good for me and alfalfa maybe be too strong.. first with hops (I think it is the hops and maybe alfalfa) bringing on my rash and acne, since I stopped hops it is getting better and I have tried alfalfa 2 times this past month and not sure if that makes my acne worse or making come to the surface like a detox..

Hops and alfalfa both contain phyto-estrogens. High estrogens decrease cortisol. Cortisol keeps the rash away. Cortisol is made from progesterone, so increasing fenugreek may help too.

For the acne, try drinking hops as tea between meals. Or try a little saw palmetto. Or decrease maca.

but as for the alfalfa and not sure if this is what made this happen but I got my period like normal last month (it ended on Thanksgiving) then a week later I bleed for 3 days after taking alfalfa 1-2 days before the bleeding, it was light ..well not sure if the alfalfa triggered another period but didn't have any other symptoms of a period..mentally felt great, no cramps, nothing odd actually I feel very good, some tiredness not alot..probably from being busy with my man

Then it was spotting. What can happen is a second ovulation in the same cycle. I wrote a post on taking chaste tree berry (vitex agnus castus) just before and after your period to suppress the second ovulation.

which brings me to the other thought..would the bleeding be from becoming prego..? I am due for my period now ..last month I got it around the 21st or 22nd..

Don't think so. Btw if you do, it's a sign

ok back to the herbs..I stopped the hops and have been taking maca, FG, barley grass, GR, turmeric, and very little shave grass cause I am not sure what shave grass is doing as for the others I rotate them ..today I took none and tomorrow I will see how I feel....

Don't know about shave grass either. Be careful with maca for acne.

when I was taking hops I was doing a tea and drinking/eating it with juice and foods ..unless it was clearing my system out ..dont know but I got this effect when I drank beer.. I am thinking of keeping hops in only either very low dose everyday or just use it just when my period starts and only as a tea (does the tea have estrogen in it?)..

Eating hops with juice and foods gives you more estrogens. Tea between meals has a little estrogens, but more anti-androgen.

also when I take alfalfa I get stomach pains..not sure if it is a cleansing effect or homone effect..also it seems also I get acne from alfalfa unless it is a cleansing effect..but I only took alfalfa as I said above and bleeding started (I stopped all herbs at that time except maca and FG in low dose then had nothing on the third day) then I tried alfalfa again a few days ago and it bothered me rash wise..so not sure about that stuff what and when to add it back,

Alfalfa is a legume, so it may be hard on the GI tract. The phyto-estrogens in it may decrease cortisol. But then hops and maca will do that too.

as for the barley grass, turermic, maca, GR,FG, FN actually I do the GR only at night and FN just before my period. when I was taking hops, maca, turmeric, FG, barley grass mix before I got the acne my skin was doing pretty good and chin hairs were really good..and I noticed doing a tea was better for me then eating it..

The tea between meals has more anti-androgen.

I do have to say my acne did come on just last week which is just before my period also I feel that it was making me shed hair more..so maybe my hops was just too high along with maca ..

Yes, especially the maca.

so I am thinking tomorrow just do small doses of all and take it from there..oh I wasnt getting much if none at all tingling, some swelling from GR though..but not worried about that so much for some reason..my main goal now is my skin and hair...

Maybe take some emergency anti-androgen, like SP, or lots of hops tea between meals.

oh did forget to mention that I slacked on my supps...so that may have added to that dilemma..ok done for now..that you for your time..see you in the morn..

MSM helps some people with skin.

Looks like these were stormy weeks. Get enough rest

Isabelle

[beachbumbythesea]

you were right about maca isabelle! i used to have breakouts, and when i took maca, within 1 day, i would get bad cystic acne!! i tried again and again and the same thing would happen. almost threw out my bag of maca. but now, since i've been mostly acne free for months, i started taking maca again. it's been 10 days on maca and no zits! yay.

i have no idea how much in terms of mg i am taking though since my bag doesn't specify. do you have a rough estimate of how many mg of grounded maca powder is in a teaspoon?

thanks again isabelle!

HI lled34aa and Isabelle,

What are you saying about maca did it cause the acne or make it worst in the begining.. cause I was doing fine on maca breakout wise until I added the hops..should I just keep my maca really low or up it ...I really dont want to stop hops ..I think today I may try a low dose of hops tea with some maca too, and see what happens...oh and some FG too.. I was keeping maca in the regimen to keep my hormones somewhat level..is this not good and I also wanted some booty boost from it too..oh yeah my man commented on how nice my booty is looking..his exact words when I was bending over to take my shoes off...nice ass..my thought was wow he actually said that..nice..now next time I want to hear it about the tits...dont want to stop maca I like it cause it makes me feel good..meaning level..ok going to make my tea..

Isabelle..I went back and looked at when I got my period last month and the 3 day bleeding started on the 13th day which would be ovulation time so I guess I was ovulating..haha and was getting busy with my man too before and after so we shall see if a miracle happens...so far no period today..

[Isabelle]

Hi Susan,

Spotting is an estrogen dominance symptom:
http://www.womenlivingnaturally.com/arti....php?id=72

So on day 13, just after the natural estrogen peak, it's probably something that can just happen if you're taking maca and hops.

[Isabelle]

Good morning Susan,

I was wondering if saw palmetto, or maybe barley grass, would help, just until your skin clears and the hair loss stops. Hops (as tea between meals) helps with acne, but it is not really known as a prostate herb, so it is possible that it only inhibits 5α-reductase type 1.

Saw palmetto extract inhibits both forms: 5α-reductase type 1 and 2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-reductase

Type 2 5α-reductase makes DHT from testosterone. Type 1 does 5α-reduction of androstenedione to 5α-androstanedione, which is then converted to DHT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRD5A1
In this drawing, 5α-androstanedione is not shown. It does show that type 1 does not make the estrogens from testosterone:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...enesis.svg
Type 1 5α-reductase bypasses testosterone.

I'm going out to shop groceries for a nice Christmas dinner. Wahaika wrote the best time to start NBE is between winter solstice and summer solstice. Before Germanic tribes were christened, Christmas was the festival of the return of the light. So this is the official start of the NBE year. Next week is the time to think about goals for 2012. Since this is my first holiday season on the forum, I never thought about it this way. There's a whole new meaning to this time of the year

[Isabelle]

I have checked new literature on maca after lled34aa's post:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41963#pid41963

I still wonder if maca really increases DHEA. Tribulus terrestris is said to increase DHEA:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...020.x/full

Maca is also said to increase DHEA levels if they are too low
http://www.tristarnaturals.com/pdf/Trist...ochure.pdf
but it does not change levels of testosterone or estradiol:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...519.x/full
nor of DHEA sulfate, in this study:
http://www.scielo.org.bo/scielo.php?pid=S1813-53632010000200007&script=sci_arttext&tlng=es
DHEA sulfate is measured instead of free DHEA, because free DHEA is so low it is difficult to measure, and most DHEA is bound as DHEA sulfate. This explains why there is no analytical chemical literature on measuring DHEA after taking any herb. It also explains why so many herbs are claimed to increase DHEA, with no data to support that claim.

So the status is still the same as when I first started reading on maca:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=32411#pid32411

One publication I linked earlier:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.11...x/abstract
reports that maca decreased prostate weight and zinc levels in rats, after artificial increases by giving the rats testosterone enanthate. So there may be a good reason why maca is sold as an adaptogen: it appears to change no hormone levels if they are right, but maybe it does change them if they are disturbed.

Prettymama suggested that may mean that maca keeps the breast and butt development going as it did before maca, only faster. Since then, I always take the precaution of not starting maca before the other herbs are tuned right for growth without androgen side effects, like acne. There is anecdotal evidence supporting this approach on the forum, but I wish I could find a scientific article. How do you design an experiment that proves this?

[Isabelle]

In this article about herbal treatment of PCOS, hops is listed in the table as an herb that decreases Luteinizing Hormone (LH):
http://www.mediherb.com.au/pdf/8018.pdf

A sharp peak of LH is necessary to trigger ovulation, and LH is needed throughout the luteal phase to make progesterone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luteinizing_hormone
So it may help to stop hops on day 12 for ovulation.

[beachbumbythesea]

Goodmorning Isabelle,

It is weird how you mentioned NBE starting now..well just last night I was thinking of taking a break from all herbs til after New Years day, so taking a week off all herbs.. Oh I got my period this morning too.. As for hops I was thinking of just taking it like PM but since I am taking a break this week (maybe)..if I dont then I would do the hops after a few days and then stop after a few days like you say..so you are saying maca is the acne colprit....so maca adds growth to the butt and tits which I believe it does..I thought I read somewhere that SP does too...part of me wants PM back in the mix but not really cause of not knowing how it effects my health..plus I am getting tingling last night in the titas..I think it is from GR..but I feel I need a break from some stuff..I keep saying that but never take the break..maybe I will take some milk thisle sp? with my barley grass..I do feel barley grass is helping with my skin..this is my thought ....keep all at low doses and add detox type herbs this week ..like my teas I bought a month ago ..havent finished them yet..well I too have to go shopping but just for myself for regular everyday food.....so maybe we will talk later..going to reread your posts too..****Merry Christmas****

Hey Isabelle I read the link about hops and LH also other herbs I am already taking is listed like FG, GR, turmeric, and licorice is mentioned alot..so do I need to lower my LH phase..is this making my symptoms worst..meaning if LH is high that means my estrogen is high ? and progesterone is not good..I have been thinking alot about WY..what do you think of me taking this..my gut is telling me to use it or chasetree (is this progesterone)..mostly WY has been on my mind..also I was surprised to see soy on the list..hmmm...ok done for now..