[Isabelle]

Hi lled,

The simple answer is no. I decreased all my doses except hops a month ago. The decrease in goat's rue was substantial: from 4,500 to 1,500 mg. My growth slowed down from an inch a month to half an inch a month, but I never lost anything.

Tape day is the day after tomorrow. I have increased goat's rue to 4,500 mg again, and I feel the swelling is tighter. I'll measure to check if the growth rate picked up. If not, I'll try increasing fenugreek to the dose of a month ago, 4,600 mg.

Constant swelling becomes growth, because stretched tissue grows. The only things that caused measurable loss so far are a break of a month, and weight loss.

[lled34aa]

thanks isablle! i'm going to increase GR a little bit more. i've been taking slightly shy of 3,000 mg of GR a day. i'm going to increase it to almost 4,000 mg and see what happens. i wish i can grow half an inch a month!!!

you mentioned that stretched tissues become growth. i'm trying to wrap my head around that. i know the brava and noogleberry systems are based on this concept. but, why then do breast feeding moms deflate after they're done feeding? you would think that they can keep on taking something like GR even after they're done feeding and they would be able to keep their size. but in practice, all of them deflate, some end up with even smaller size than prenatal. the body just metabolizes whatever milk that's left. right? i feel like there's something to the equation that i'm not getting.

[Isabelle]

Hi lled,

I had to think about this, but my conclusion is that the situation we are trying to create is not like breastfeeding, in two ways:

1. The baby grows and wants more and more, while the milk supply is drying up. By the time the baby is weaned, it may be too late for the breasts: the swelling is totally deflated. In NBE, the milk is reabsorbed, but the water remains in the lymph system, and I assume the fat is deposited locally. I never read this anywhere, but the practical result of this hypothesis is easy to check: if it's true, skin brushing should work well with goat's rue.

2. Women who are breastfeeding lose a lot of weight after the pregnancy too.

I don't really know what happens to the milk after breastfeeding is stopped, but from what I've read, there is also engorgement, like Anastasia experienced, and even mastitis: Mel wrote about that. So I'd say the breasts of a woman who stops breastfeeding don't give up just like that. I hope there are good ways to wean a baby while switching from feeding to noogling or massage, goat's rue, or another form of NBE. Maybe Anastasia knows.

[Isabelle]

My list of herbs is grouped by what they do:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=35038#pid35038
because that's easier to memorize.

In the last few days, I have made a different type of list for Gogirlanime
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11015&pid=43608#pid43608
and for BarbieGrrrl and transgender newbie
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10880&pid=43772#pid43772
who wanted lists of herbs, with for each herb, a summary of what it does.

Actually, herbals are always organized in this way: a list of herb names, usually alphabetical, with monographs on each herb, in a standardized format. In fact, that is how I built my program too: starting from one herb, and checking herb by herb if it would be a useful addition to the first herb. Then the same procedure for the third herb, and so on.

Now I understand what a good NBE book should look like: a traditional herbal, with all herbs and supplements used in NBE, with clear explanations of what they are used for. Maybe standardize the explanation to five paragraphs on what the herb does to estrogens, progesterone, androgens, prolactin, and other hormones or relevant aspects like nutrition, safety, and mood.

Looks like something worth starting on

[Isabelle]

85 kg! That'll teach me to party with the kids. One of the girls said if you're looking, add seven to your age and divide by three: that's 19, which is what they all are. If I want to keep up with 19 year olds, I better start dieting now. My BMI is 26.7, after maca and goat's rue tea, but before fenugreek and exercise.

I have tripled my goat's rue dose to three cups a day again, to see if growth picks up. It does: my bust measures 114 cm, that's 45 ". I really should keep on doing this to make sure, or drop the dose again to check if growth slows down, but I'm anxious to move on to doubling my fenugreek dose again.

Height: 178.5 cm = 5 * 30.48 + 10 * 2.54 = 5' 10"
Weight: 85.0 kg * 2.2046 lbs/kg = 187 lbs
Body Mass Index (BMI): 85.0/1.785/1.785 = 26.7
Breast: 114 cm = 45 "
Under: 96 cm = 38" Difference Breast - Under = 114 - 96 = 18 cm = 7 ", US bra size 42C
Waist: 88 cm = 35"
Hip: 102 cm = 40" (actually the widest part around my butt)
Waist to hip ratio (WHR): 88/102 = 0.86

Progress:
Day 11/7 26/7 08/8 22/8 05/9 19/9 3/10 17/10 31/10 14/11 28/11 12/12 27/12 09/1 23/1 2014 2016
BMI: 26.5 26.4 26.2 25.7 25.3 26.0 25.70 25.70 25.70 25.60 26.00 25.90 25.90 25.7 26.7 23.0 23.0
B-U: 8.00 5.00 8.00 8.00 8.00 10.0 10.00 13.00 11.00 14.00 15.00 16.00 16.00 17.0 18.0 15.0 20.0
WHR 0.95 .945 0.94 0.92 0.92 0.96 0.930 0.940 0.910 0.880 0.880 0.880 0.870 0.84 0.86 0.80 0.70
B-U = Breast - Under in cm

[Pansy-Mae]

Hi lled,

I had to think about this, but my conclusion is that the situation we are trying to create is not like breastfeeding, in two ways:

1. The baby grows and wants more and more, while the milk supply is drying up. By the time the baby is weaned, it may be too late for the breasts: the swelling is totally deflated. In NBE, the milk is reabsorbed, but the water remains in the lymph system, and I assume the fat is deposited locally. I never read this anywhere, but the practical result of this hypothesis is easy to check: if it's true, skin brushing should work well with goat's rue.

2. Women who are breastfeeding lose a lot of weight after the pregnancy too.

I don't really know what happens to the milk after breastfeeding is stopped, but from what I've read, there is also engorgement, like Anastasia experienced, and even mastitis: Mel wrote about that. So I'd say the breasts of a woman who stops breastfeeding don't give up just like that. I hope there are good ways to wean a baby while switching from feeding to noogling or massage, goat's rue, or another form of NBE. Maybe Anastasia knows.

I knew I had read something about this mechanism somewhere, but its taken me awhile to find it...and it turned out to be good old Wikepedia!

During pregnancy, high circulating concentrations of estrogen and progesterone inhibit the action of prolactin on milk production. Following delivery, reduced estrogen and progesterone production allows prolactin to induce lactation.

So no point in us increasing both prolactin AND progesterone


After childbirth, prolactin levels fall as the internal stimulus for them is removed. Sucking by the baby on the nipple then promotes further prolactin release, maintaining the ability to lactate. The sucking activates mechanoreceptors in and around the nipple. These signals are carried by nerve fibers through the spinal cord to the hypothalamus, where changes in the electrical activity of neurons that regulate the pituitary gland cause increased prolactin secretion. The suckling stimulus also triggers the release of oxytocin from the posterior pituitary gland, which triggers milk let-down: Prolactin controls milk production (lactogenesis) but not the milk-ejection reflex; the rise in prolactin fills the breast with milk in preparation for the next feed.

In usual circumstances, in the absence of galactorrhea, lactation will cease within one or two weeks of the end of demand breastfeeding.


It has also been found that compared to un-mated males, fathers and expectant fathers have increased prolactin concentrations.[13]


Hmm... so we need to get our wives/girlfriends preggers then??


High prolactin levels also tend to suppress the ovulatory cycle by inhibiting the secretion of both follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and gonadotropic-releasing hormone (GnRH). High prolactin levels can also contribute to mental health issues.

Prolactin levels peak during REM sleep, and in the early morning. Levels can rise after exercise, meals, sexual intercourse, minor surgical procedures,[14] or following epileptic seizures.[15]

[beachbumbythesea]

Goodmorning Isabelle,

I have been kind of busy and been doing alot of reading for skin and what is going on with my symptoms.. I am not sure what is going on but since I used hops it through my body so out of whack.. really bad but it is much better from when I stopped taking it but still not the same since I used it..this is what I came to conclude sp? that my cortisol is high which effect adrenals or adrenals effect cortisol.. anyway also I feel I am low in estrogen and progesterone.. the past few days I have been taking on and off maca and WY..the past 2 days just 1 maca each day no progesterone type of herb..today I took just a WY and put some pc cream on cause I did both tests and I feel in both as low estrogen and low progesterone (is this consistant with my age?). I dont know why hops messed me up so much..I feel like I have a very low immune system, my muscles in my right side of neck area still hurts but not as bad since I have been back from my mans.. oh yeah I think my prolactin is on the high side or was.. and when that happens doesnt that lower estrogen.. so I am not taking any GR, FG, ..yesterday what helped my muscle problem was well get this I was putting bengay on it and very very little help then yesterday I rubbed eucalyptus the muscles and it help alot (with in minutes)..I also drink a combo tea mix with 2 tea bags with licorce, pomergante sp?, hibiscus, rosehip, orange peel, lemon peel, blackberry leaves, ginseng, lavender, chamomile and add turmeric too.. the tea I didnt start drinking until after I used the eucalyptus so it was def.. that but the tea help more so ..this was the day before yesterday and that is when I took the maca..going to make the same tea soon.. waiting on the decision to take maca, something I was reading said to slowly raise progesterone first and add maca..

How did the party go..did you all have fun..did you see some hot 19 yr olds hmmmmmmmm...

[lled34aa]

thanks pansy-mae. according to wiki, high prolactin level suppress the ovulatory cycle. up until the past 2 days, i've been taking around 3g of GR a day and my cycle has been regular. does that mean either GR is not raising my prolactin level efficiently, or perhaps 3g of GR is just not that much? i would think it's a lot considering i'm a pretty small person (almost 5'1" 100bls).

inspired by isabelle's program, i'm now taking 4g of GR a day. this is my 3rd day and so far, no noticeable difference. perhaps the PM i'm taking is canceling out the effects of GR?

[Pansy-Mae]

thanks pansy-mae. according to wiki, high prolactin level suppress the ovulatory cycle. up until the past 2 days, i've been taking around 3g of GR a day and my cycle has been regular. does that mean either GR is not raising my prolactin level efficiently, or perhaps 3g of GR is just not that much? i would think it's a lot considering i'm a pretty small person (almost 5'1" 100bls).

inspired by isabelle's program, i'm now taking 4g of GR a day. this is my 3rd day and so far, no noticeable difference. perhaps the PM i'm taking is canceling out the effects of GR?

Hi lled,
I don't want to muscle in on Isabelle's thread, but I'm taking 6g GR a day ( as tea) together with 3g of hops, approx as per her posted programme of 18th Dec ( 4.5g +3g), which she said was growing her at 1" per month. ( I switched from PM after taking it for 15months in total and seeing no growth for the final 6months of that). Isabelle reckons that PM has a suppression effect on prolactin, although I'm not clear on why she says that, but if she's right then that may be the answer to your question...not enough GR and too much PM. I've been on the hops and GR together for only a few days and I think something is happening although it isn't yet measurable.

[lostacres6]

Pansy-mae,
What would be a Hops alternative? I tried the elixir & it put me into a bad crying spell even if I only took it at night. There was no gram weight on the bottle - only to take 30-40 drops. I take about 2400 mg GR now. Taking 6 GM (caps) would put me in the poor house. How do you make GR tea? I take 1000 mg Ainterol PM (500 x 2) daily. Is that too much? I am menopausal so I take it continuously.
I also use Progesterone cream 21 days a month, 7 days off.
Thanks