[gilly]

Hi everyone!

I decided to create a new thread for my program because I can't change the title of it 1440 minutes after they were posted And I figured my "simple UB program" title is a bit misleading now that I'm on a complicated PM program (for now atleast)

link to old program thread: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10614

Gender: Female
Age: 22
Height: 5'8"
Weight: 125 lbs
Diet: Vegetarian
Birthcontrol: Nuvaring (continuous with no breaks unless I start spotting a lot)

My starting NBE measurements (at my smallest after one cycle of UB (I was measuring wrong before that)):
15 Dec 2011
Under bust: 29 "
Bust size: 31 1/2 "
Above bust: 31 "

Waist: 26 1/2 "
Hips: 33 "
Butt: 36 "

Measurements today

14 Feb 2011
Under bust: 29 "
Bust size: 32 " (+1/2 " since start)
Above bust: 31 1/2 " (+1/2 " since start)

waist: 26 1/4 "
Hips: 33 1/4 "
Butt: 36 1/2 "


Program:

1000 mg Ainterol PM daily no cycling. (Phyto-estrogen)
Fennel seed 1440 mg (phyto-progestin and increases prolactin)
Spearmint tea 1500 mg twice a day (anti-androgen)
Ginkgo Biloba 120 mg (circulation and general mental health)
MSM up to 3000 mg a day
L-arginine ramping up to 5 gr a day maybe more if I need.
Cranberry (Urinary tract health, not NBE related)
A rice protein shake almost every day (contains L-arg among others)
Yoga almost every day
Noogleberry (starting with one hour every day, then will probably do more after getting used to it)



So I've been on PM for about 2 weeks and was taking it with Goats Rue but I just switched GR out with Fennel (less expensive and is a phyto-progestin) and added Spearmint. A couple days ago while still on PM+GR I started to get a massive headache and was feeling very nauseous, both signs of estrogen dominance, as well as two large pimples that showed up at the same time, and increased acne and hair loss over the last week. I decided to drink spearmint tea and took a few fennel seed pills, and now I am feeling fine and the pimples are completely gone. Also I noticed those few days my boobs were not getting their normal early morning swelling, but luckily, that is back too now. So that's how I came to add spearmint and fennel.

I got my noogleberry, and was shocked at the fast shipping. It only took a week for it to reach me on the west coast US. So far I've only done 4 sessions. My boobs will inflate to about 1" while I'm pumping, but not keeping any swelling longer than a couple minutes after. I try to use a heatpad before I pump, and drink lots of water throughout the day.

Thanks for any and all advice and tips and encouragement
and
happy boobie-growing

[sunnydayz]

Hi Gilly. I have been taking pm daily without cycling too. So it is ok to take with fennel? What is the benefits of taking fennel with pm? I've been drinking a cup of fennel tea at work (it's all I had in my desk drawer) but wasn't sure if I should be since a lot of people have said not to mix other herbs with pm. Thanks

[gilly]

Hi Sunnydayz

Yay, another non-cycler!
I took fennel once I got the estrogen dominance symptoms just from intuition (and I had a bottle of it standing around), but it is a phyto-progestin (grows the glandular parts of the breasts) and increases prolactin (swelling).

In a normal herbal program you would want to balance the estrogen with some progesterone, at least to get rid of the headaches from too much estrogen, and that is what most people on herbs other than pm do, and according to Isabelle, they usually take FG, WY and/or Fennel.

I was/am pretty confused about this whole what you can(not) combine with what. I thought that one isn't supposed to take other phyto-estrogens with PM because they "water out" the effect of PM. But then again, I saw lilmissprettytits added hops to her program, and she got great results. Some swear that all you need for big boobs is PM, but I'm not so sure. The fennel and spearmint along with it seem to be working for me (or is at least less painful ) And fennel can replace my goats rue for the prolactin. Goats rue was just too expensive in pill form and I don't have time to make teas all day =( Personally I think this is much smarter. I don't see how we treat PM should be any different from other phyto-estrogens, and since it is stronger, it definitely makes sense to balance it out with phyto-progestins. I hope this helps some?

[sunnydayz]

Thanks for the answer, Gilly. When not cycling, do you take the fennel or FG during what would be the luteal phase ortake it for the whole month, as well? From reading here, I too, got the impression that you weren't supposed to take other herbs at the same time as pm because it would weaken the effects.

[gilly]

Hi again Sunnydayz!

I'm taking fennel every day the whole month. I believe that is what biological males are doing too on herbal programs, since they don't have cycles. I want to keep my hormone levels at a somewhat constant level throughout the month so that I don't induce any ovulation or anything that could mess with my birthcontrol. Also, since I'm taking fennel to fight estrogen dominance symptoms, I wanna have that effect all month long. Have you decided what you are going to do?

[NotSoBusty]

Gilly,

I am in love with your program. Seriously. I love both the effects of PM and fennel, and I love that you are using them both! I might have to go back on BC, and I was looking for a way to maximize the effects of PM on BC, and I feel like you have a really solid program that is based on research. I can't wait to see how it works out for you!

[Alicia]

Hey Gilly! I'm taking spearmint (follicular phase) and fennel (luteal phase) too.
I really hope spearmint has some effect on my acne *sigh*
Anyway... I've been investigating about fennel lately, and I've found some of Isabelle's posts about how too much fennel (or progestins in general) can stop growth.
Looks like 400mg (what Eve was taking) is the recommended dose:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7984&pid=31800#pid31800
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9142&pid=32102#pid32102

I guess this doesn't apply to PM users? PM is the strongest phytoestrogen so perhaps the fennel dose should be higher?
Well, I just thought you may find this info interesting, or perhaps you already knew it I'd like to hear your opinion too.

Ahhhh I'd love to take PM, if only my cycles were regular! grrr

My best wishes and good luck on your new program Gilly!

[gilly]

Notsobusty,

Thank you!!! I'm really excited about my program too. I learn something new every day, but often it's just basic stuff I somehow didn't pick up on earlier

Alicia,
Thank you so much! I actually didn't know until yesterday when I saw it briefly mentioned in some post or other. Thanks for reminding me. I initially took fennel so that I wouldn't have the headaches and just followed the instructions on the bottle, but now that they are gone, I will try to take less and less fennel to see how little I can take without getting headaches.
I agree, it seems like I'm taking way too much, and should at least not exceed my PM dose. My boobs certainly look rounder though!

I'm excited that you're taking spearmint. You know, the skin on my face I have had a problem with lots of tiny red bumps (not pimples, just hard and small red bumps) as well as really inflamed skin for about 2 years now, and my dermatologist said that it is an allergic reaction to products that I've put on it. It got a little tiny bit better after switching to non-allergenic products, but then it will flare up really bad again, and there's nothing that has helped. Now after drinking spearmint tea twice a day for a week, my skin is smooth and I barely have any red bumps any more. It is still inflamed, but the bumps are gone, and so I'm thinking I probably had a case of weird acne as well as allergic reactions. I'm hoping this isn't all in my head and that the spearmint is working. It's either the spearmint, or it's the fennel, but spearmint is more likely. I really hope it helps you some.

I was actually reading something about spearmint today:
http://www.healthyfellow.com/290/mint-tea-warning/

In the trial, 42 women with PCOS related hirsutism were assigned to drink spearmint tea or a placebo herbal tea twice daily for 30 days. Blood tests measuring hormone levels were taken at the beginning, the mid way point and at the end of the experiment. The results indicate that the women receiving the spearmint demonstrated significant reductions in free and total testosterone levels and increases in luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone concentrations. These alterations are consistent with an improvement in PCOS. (2) A reduction in hair distribution wasn’t detected, but the researchers believe that the relatively short duration of the study was the reason why. Another shorter study from 2007 found almost identical results. (3)

So I knew spearmint was an anti-androgen, but I didn't know it increased luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone, But I'm not really sure what roles those play in NBE for those that don't ovulate and are on BC. I do find this pretty exciting. Also the part about the anti-cancer properties of spearmint and how spearmint can also maybe hinder the absorption of minerals.

[Alicia]

Yes Gilly, I've been taking too much fennel too. When I first read about it a few days ago I switched back to licorice (according to Isabelle it's phyto-estrogen, phyto-progestin, anti-androgen and increases prolactin) but yesterday I read it's not only fennel but all phyto-progestins which should be taken in a low dose
I've ordered some Egyptian licorice mint tea, which is a mix of licorice and other herbs so the risk of a licorice superdose will be lower, or so I hope.

Thanks for all the info on spearmint.
I can't believe you got results from it in just a week! I was taking only a cup per day, but next follicular phase I'll do as you and take two cups every day, no excuses!
Besides the acne I also have hirsutism, which I've managed to keep at bay through the years with various painful methods, but it's not gone and I'm still waiting for the miraculous method to appear. Same with the acne, I've had it since I was 18, and I'm 31 now, I've tried creams, soaps and lotions through the years to no avail. Yes, it's got better with time but I still have many pimples. They never go away and if they do, new ones sprout
I hope my spearmint+hops+SP follicular routine works for me.
Have you ever tried peppermint? Isabelle says it's anti-androgen and estrogenic (yeh Isabelle's and Wahaika's posts are my personal NBE wikipedia lol).

If I'm not wrong PM is also an anti-androgen, right? I'm sure it will have a good effect on your skin too, I've read PM users say their skin looks smoother and their hair healthier while using it.

Btw, a bit off-topic now, but do you massage your breasts? Or does the noogleberry increase prolactin by itself, so no need to massage?

PS: I'm so sorry for the acneic-hairy digression lol.

[gilly]

Hi Alicia!

Tell me how it goes with the spearmint. I am really loving it. I have had short bouts of no acne before, but it only ever lasted like a day or two. This has lasted for over a week now, and I am certain it is the spearmint. It is also slowly getting less and less inflamed. Here is another article I found today as I was researching the link between sugar and androgens, because I have had issues with sudden drops of bloodsugar for a while now too. http://www.natural-acne-solution.com/blo...-acne.html

Eating high GL foods spikes your BL levels. The pancreas responds by releasing large quantities of insulin to bring down the bloodsugar levels. It has to do this because high blood sugar levels are dangerous.

Large quantities of insulin cause bloodsugar levels to plummet. Too low blood sugar levels trigger another emergency response. The adrenalin glands release androgens. Androgens are hormones that signal the liver to release some of its glycogen storages to raise the BL. Too low BL levels can lead to unconsciousness.

Also I believe sugar causes inflammation, which is another problem I have with my skin.
So I will definitely continue with the spearmint tea for a while and try to cut out as much sugar as possible (except fruits and other normal whole foods obviously)

I haven't tried peppermint really, and because it is estrogenic too, I don't want to mess up my pm with it. Haha I know what you mean about the NBE gurus. I have now created a file where I keep all the useful links of anything interesting Isabelle (and others) has ever said, so that I can consult the info without having to search for it again
I heard PM is anti-androgen too, but I wasn't getting any effect of it on my facial skin. Though the rest of body did maybe feel a little softer for a while.

I've never been very good with massaging. I don't know why, but I find it so boring. I do massage a tiny little bit with oil before I noogle though, but that's just to get better swelling. Though I'm not sure about the prolactin bit, if it increases it at all.

As a side note, I have now decreased down to only 480 mg of fennel per day. Of course this induced a withdrawal bleeding, which I totally forgot would happen, but oh well. Hopefully I will stop bleeding soon, and that I don't need to go up in dose again for that to happen. I do feel a slight headache though, so I might have to find some way to increase just a little bit again anyways.
Also I got a UTI at the same time as I decreased my dosage And so the UTI was probably induced by the change in hormones and/or by me using a tampon that day because of the bleeding.