[mochaccino]

Wahaika, I know you feel strongly about PC, but I've looked into it and there is no question that some people have had success with it. The people who did well with it generally cycled it, and paid extremely close attention to their hormone levels. Some were just acutely aware of their own symptoms, but others used charting or testing to keep track. The few who grew well while using the cream continuously (without cycling) all seem to have had a history of PCOS or other serious hormonal disorders, even if they weren't technically suffering from those disorders while they were taking the cream, and I understand that that can't possibly be a coincidence.

Ginie used BBT to determine whether or not she was becoming estrogen dominant, and she generally only used PC every 2 or 3 months, as necessary. She also used the cream according to package directions, rather than as a boobie batter. If I were to decide to use PC, I would definitely follow her example.

I really don't except you to be in any way swayed but what I just said, but I want you to know why I still haven't written it off.

[mochaccino]

About my program, what sort of tweaks do you suggest? I'm willing to consider a last ditch effort. As a matter of fact, I was already thinking about giving it another month at this new super low dose, just to be absolutely sure. What do you really think about my complete lack of a response to these herbs? I'm not just talking about growth or swelling.

[mochaccino]

I forgot to mention that, yes, I am using Greenbush kit #2, and the oils are from mountain rose.

[Wahaika]

Ok, I will concede that PC can be used to clear estrogen receptors if done correctly. I take an extreme stand because once Pandora's box is opened, others will come along and try "something new with PC" and mess themselves up. If women are having regular cycles they simply do not need it.

I'll take a look at Gene's program. If you can provide any links to pages explaining how she used it and the results, it would be appreciated.

Besides Genie, who else used PC and had results?

[mochaccino]

Okay. I guess I accidentally committed myself to doing some legwork. For now I'll just post a link to Ginie's program. She never lists exact measurements, but she eventually ended up with breasts that were "too big", in her opinion. That's unfortunate for her, but good for us, since it means that it's not likely her results are exaggerated due to wishful thinking. Her program is very long, and I'm still not perfectly clear on how she used BBT charting to come up with her very unique dosing schedules for PM and PC. I think it's important to point out that she did use genuine bioidentical progesterone, although she doesn't say anything about the dose in mg. Her PM program, which is modeled after Chiyomilk's, starts on page 4, 8th post down this page: http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=7251&page=4
The program in that post was not her final program. After starting her PM program she continued to change small things here and there along the way, like most people do.

Here's my attempt at a brief synopsis of Ginie's history with PC. She apparently first started using PC during the second half of her cycle, while also following Tigerlilly's boobie food diet. She followed this somewhat strange program for 4 months, after not achieving growth on an undisclosed herbal program. During that time she gained a cup size, but then lost it "due to stress", according to her. I'm not sure if that's true, or if she lost weight, or if her results were purely due to swelling, which dissappeared after she ended her initial program. I have a feeling I know which interpretation your gonna lean toward I have to admit, I wouldn't be surprised if you were right in this case, but there's know way to tell for sure based on the little that she said.

After that, she started a program that consisted of mainly BO and possibly some other basic supplements such as vitamins, but it's hard to say. She didn't reintroduce PC until some unknown amount of time later. She says that when she did reintroduce it, her swelling from BO decreased significantly, which she did not like. Although she was already doing BBT at this point, it's not clear whether she was using it to decide exactly how much progesterone to use. It's also not clear whether she got very little growth, or none at all from this leg of her program. In any case, whatever growth she might have achieved was insufficient for her, because she decided drop her program completely and start fresh with Chiyomilk's program.

While combining Chiyomilk's program with PC, she went from a full A or small B to a D. As far as I can tell, she achieved this growth in only 6 months, between April and October of last year. She originally used the PC every month, but decreased to once every "2 or 3 months", according to her, as her charts changed. I'm assuming this is due to gradual tissue saturation, but I don't know. Considering that her program lasted only 6 months, this means that she must have barely used PC at all during the end of the her program, a fact which I'm sure has not escaped you. I estimate that this amounts to about 8 weeks of PC use, total, spread out over 6 months. Without some more detail about her dosing schedule, I can't say for sure. She says that the swelling, and possibly growth, that she achieved from PM was much greater immediately following a PC cycle. She also ramped her PM dose down very slowly at the end of her program, but I don't think she did it intentionally. It seems like she just wanted to stop her program, but was paranoid about loosing her results. Luckily, she continued to update her page for a surprisingly long time after ending her program completely. She retained a D cup for a full 4 months after stopping all BE, at which point she stopped updating.

Normally it's hard to say whether the results documented are real, permanent growth, because people tend to disappear once they reach their desired cup size. Her's is a rare case in which I can say I feel confident that all her results were real growth. Of course, it's up to you to decide whether you believe her results were because of or in spite of her use of PC, considering that she was using Chiyomilk's awesome program. Either way, I think she's an undeniable example of someone who grew while using PC.

[mochaccino]

Wahaika, you have won me over, for now. I think Im going to continue with your program for 3 months at a consistent dosage. One of the main things that was really bothering me is that without any "symptoms" there was no way of knowing what dose was the right dose for me. Because of my size, I suspect I should use less than 2000 mg per herb. Is that right? I want to include the hops extract too. Im not sure how to adjust the dosage so I can include the hops. It seems like you usually recommend about 2000 mg per herb for an A cup, plus 500 mg more every additional cup size, but not more than 3000 mg each. Is that a fair asessment? I know you do try to take other things into consideration, and you encorage people to customize the dose based on their symptoms, but I don't have any symptoms. I'm 2" smaller than an A cup. Does this mean I might I have to use only 1000 mg each?What dose do you recommend?

[Wahaika]

I would think that you should be at the 1000mg range for the herbs. You did a stall test and got nothing. Some women grow and never feel a thing. It is not uncommon. And this is the best time to start a program. But to say that it may as well have been sugar pills has me wondering if you are a responder to herbs.

1) How long did you do the program?

2) Do you want to try a program like Genie's which is patterned after Chiyomilk's program, makes use of progesterone cream once every two months, and uses the Noogleberry?

[mochaccino]

I don't know what to make of the lack of "feelings" from the herbs. It only bothers me because it leaves me completely in the dark about what is or is not happening. Something might be happening, but what I'm feeling right now is no different than what I would feel if nothing were happening at all. I don't wanna give the false impression that I'm pulling my hair out over it or anything. I just want to clarify the real reason why I'm annoyed and confused by the lack of response. It's not just shear impatience, or at least that's what I choose to believe

How should I include the hops if I do include it? What dosage? I realize there's no way to know for certain if I respond to this particular combination of herbs until Ive tried it at a low dose for 12 weeks, or until my current stash runs out. Whichever comes first. I'm open to restocking all or part of my current stash if I run out long before 12 weeks. If I've completely misjudged my stash, and I run out in like 3 weeks or so, I'll have no choice but to buy more, but if it lasts 9 or 10 weeks and I haven't noticed any changes whatsoever, I'll have to think long and hard about whether I want to risk throwing good money after bad.

Hopefully you are 100% correct about everything related to your program, and I'll report back here with D cups wondering why I ever doubted you. Always remember that the last thing I want to do is prove that your program doesn't work. Right now, proving you right is in my own best interest.

On the other hand, if it doesn't work for me, yes, I will probably try PM. I might end up never needing to use the PC, but if I determine that I do need it, I will use it. Hopefully by then I'll have figured out how to use a BBT chart to spot hormone imbalances. I doubt I will follow Chiyomilk's program to the letter, since there are so many parts of her program that seem inexplicable or unnecessary. If I remember correctly, she was doing a lot of other stuff on top of what Ginie did.

As for the Noogleberry, I probably will start using it again ASAP, no matter what else I do. If that somehow worries you, just remember that there's no logical reason why it would undo my growth from herbs, assuming I ever get any. As for the potential side effects, let's just say that I'm a big girl and I understand what I'm getting myself into. After I'm done with my 3 month experiment, I will probably wait at least one week, or until the least "swollen" part of my cycle, to measure and post my results. That way the results don't get conflated with any residual swelling from the NB or anything else.

BTW, in case this got lost in translation, I may not always agree with every last word you say, but I really am grateful to you for helping me design my program. Thanks a bunch for reading all this stuff, and always graciously answering all my random questions.

[Wahaika]

Well, don't worry about proving me right or wrong. All you are proving is to what you respond and don't respond. Since you want to add hops, lets add a few more things. Here is the list:

500mg/day fenugreek (Greenbush)
500mg/day fennel (Greenbush)
500mg/day saw palmetto (Greenbush)
500mg/day wild yam (Greenbush)
500mg/day hops (herbalcom.com)
500mg/day goat's rue (herbalcom.com)
780mg/day blessed thistle (Natures Way)
1000mg/day pumpkin seed or pumpkin seed oil (Solaray)
435mg/day Nettle leaf or nettle root (Natures Way)

1000mg EPO three times per day or 1000mg Borage oil
1000mg flaxseed oil three times per day
A good multivitamin with B complex

Teas:
fenu-fennel
goat's rue-fennel

Topical:
Same one based on fenugreek.

If this works you should see a difference in a month, better to plan for three. You cannot force AAs to grow quickly. You will also need to do chest exercises in order to get growth hormone produced. Get two sets of chest expansion springs and let me know when you have them. Do you workout with dumbells at all?

As far as the NB, go for it. Who knows, maybe it will work. Some of the results are impressive, but only if they are permanent. And don't worry about agreeing or disagreeing with me. Absolutely no offense taken. You make some excellent points, some technologies and methods are progressing (such as PM and NB), and I am not omniscient.

[mochaccino]

Brace yourself Wahaika. Here comes the flood of questions

I'm going to start by listing the additional herbs you suggested and try to explain what I think they do. I'm just doing this to make sure we are on the same page about what these herbs are for and why I should take them. Feel free to correct me or add to this.

Hops:
Contains a strong phytoestrogen, 8-pn. It also contains xanthohumol which is antagonistic to testosterone, and it can apparently lower the level of free testosterone over time. It also inhibits 5-alpha reductase.

Nettle root:
Blocks SHBG by binding to it. Prevents DHT from binding to receptors. Inhibits 5-alpha reductase like most anti-androgens.

Blessed Thistle:
I haven't been able to figure out if it contains a prolactin mimic, or if it increases endogenous prolactin, or if it does something else entirely. I do know lots of women feel that it increases milk production.

Pumpkin seed oil:
Inhibits 5-alpha reductase. I don't know whether it does so by the same mechanism as saw palmetto. If so, I don't really understand why I need both, unless the oil does something else as well.

Alfalfa:
Contains the phytoestrogens, Daidzen and Genistein.

Barley:
I'm extremely confused by this one. Both barley grains and barley grass seem to be nutritious foods and nothing more.

Goat's rue:
Raises endogenous prolactin indirectly because it's a dopamine receptor agonist.

Here are my questions:

1) Are any of these herbs meant to somehow counteract the drop in testosterone caused by hops? You seemed to be worried about hops' effect on testosterone the last time I asked you about it.

2) Why do you believe I need so many anti-androgens? Is it to raise my free testosterone or is it because you suspect I already have too much testosterone? If you are trying to raise my free testosterone, is it because you're trying to free it up to aromatize into estrogen? In other words, are you mainly trying to raise my estrogen or reduce my overall androgens by including all these anti-androgens? I'm sure it would accomplish both things, but I'm not sure what goal you actually had in mind.

3) Does Pumpkin seed oil lower 5-alpha reductase differently than Saw Palmetto? Is it different than saw palmetto in some other way?

4)Why Alfalfa? Why these particular phytoestrogens (in alfalfa)? Are you trying to cover all my bases by including a wider range of phytoestrogens than I had in my last program?