[Isabelle]

I have become more critical about how and when I measure.

First, the binge eating during the week-ends appears to be under control. On Sunday afternoon, I weighed 80.0 kg, and now, Monday evening, 80.5 kg.

I just measured my breast immediately after taking off my sweater. They looked like I just stepped out of a warm bed in the morning, and at 93 cm under and 112 cm across, they measured bigger than ever at a difference of 19 cm. A few minutes later, still at an underbust size of 93 cm, my breast circumference had shrunk to 108 cm. After only a minute of breast enlargement massage, across fully erect nipples, I measured 112 cm again, maybe 111.5.

There must be a way to measure consistently. First, it would be nice to know if the result of this ritual is repeatable. If it is, the only decision that's left is just choosing a reference point.

[Isabelle]

I haven't started soy yet, because I'm still not sure about the dose. Judging by the results of the cosupplementation study, I felt the researchers had overdosed the soy:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41283#pid41283

Well, they actually checked it. They gave their normal supplement doses to women who were waiting for an aesthetic breast reduction. After surgery, they analysed breast tissue for estrogenic metabolites of the phyto-estrogens. They did this study for soy
http://www.ajcn.org/content/91/4/976.full
and for hops:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.200900519/abstract?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

In the soy study, they found that the overall estrogenic effect of those metabolites was 21-fold and 40-fold higher than the natural 17β-estradiol concentrations in the adipose and the glandular fractions of the breast tissue, respectively. In the hops study, the overall estrogenic effect was negligible compared with 17β-estradiol in both adipose and glandular tissue. In other words, soy concentrates in breast tissue. Hops tends to stay out of it.

I already pointed out that in the cosupplementation study, the soy dose was 20 times higher than in Eve M's program:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41270#pid41270
The results of the checks the researchers did on the dose suggest that the dose is 21 to 40 times too high, or even more, in comparison with a hops dose. A niece of mine actually got her PhD working in the same building. Haven't seen her in almost a year, but maybe she could introduce me to some people for a good discussion

[sfita]

Hi Isabelle:
Is there any thing I can add to Eve's program to have better results?
thx

[Isabelle]

Hi sfita,

Good question. I never thought about it that way. The only thing I have added for better results is goat's rue, and at the moment I'm testing black seed for the same purpose.

I added maca to cope with the depression from hops.

I deleted quite a few things:
- Barley and starflower oil because the hops works well enough as an anti-androgen.
- Beremeal because there is enough folic acid in my multivitamin.
- Fennel because fenugreek is enough to prevent estrogen dominance.
- Soy because I'm not sure about the stalling dose.

[Pansy-Mae]

I have become more critical about how and when I measure.

First, the binge eating during the week-ends appears to be under control. On Sunday afternoon, I weighed 80.0 kg, and now, Monday evening, 80.5 kg.

I just measured my breast immediately after taking off my sweater. They looked like I just stepped out of a warm bed in the morning, and at 93 cm under and 112 cm across, they measured bigger than ever at a difference of 19 cm. A few minutes later, still at an underbust size of 93 cm, my breast circumference had shrunk to 108 cm. After only a minute of breast enlargement massage, across fully erect nipples, I measured 112 cm again, maybe 111.5.

There must be a way to measure consistently. First, it would be nice to know if the result of this ritual is repeatable. If it is, the only decision that's left is just choosing a reference point.

A couple of things to add to this pot, but mostly anecdotal:
Firstly 0.5Kg variance during a day is neither here nor there - you need to look at the overall trend ( but you know that!). I have found that weighing daily, at the same time every morning, shows a pattern of a couple of days of inexplicable weight gain of upto 1lb per day ( 0.5Kg) followed by 3-5 days of smaller but consistent weight losses, so that over a week or 10days the net effect is a loss of between 1 and 2lbs. This pattern has been repeating for about 3 months now, so giving me the overall loss.

I have noticed, but not actually measured, the fact that straight after getting out of bed I consistently look and feel firmer/larger/ perkier and that this goes within 5-10 minutes, but as you say, massage brings it back again for a few minutes. What that means I have no idea but I have always assumed it is to do with fluid build up whilst prone in bed followed by the effects of gravity!

I have also noticed, and I'm sure it's connected, that when I first get up they are really quite painful and it feels as though something internal is being stretched. This feeling disappears quite quickly ( within 2 or 3 minutes).

I know your 'tape day' is every couple of weeks and I do mine every two months ( it's too depressing otherwise ) but I always do my tape measuring and pictures about an hour after getting up, on a Sunday. My daily weighing I do at about 7-45am normally. So the results are as consistent as I can make them.

FWIW

[mochaccino]

I've been researching barley recently and I saw what you just said about barley and beremeal. I've been meaning to ask you why Barley is an anti-androgen. How is it an anti-androgen? What does it do? Why do you differentiate between barley and bere? What does Folic acid have to do with all this? Sorry for all the questions, but for ages I've been wondering what on earth the barley is for.

[Isabelle]

Thank you Pansy Mae,

This helps. I'm also charting my weekly rhythm of weight loss, and my daily rhythm of breast size, to find the moments that are useful for measuring consistently.

Hi mochaccino,

Barley grass is an anti-androgen. I wrote here on how the azelaic acid in it contributes to inhibiting 5α-reductase:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8548&pid=29664#pid29664
Susan also found this claim that barley grass increases HGH and prolactin:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=39952#pid39952

Folates are especially in the beremeal:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=29912#pid29912
Follow the link at the bottom of that post to the NIH fact sheet, and read the first three paragraphs: you need it for rapid growth by cell division. That helps in NBE.

[Isabelle]

This afternoon, the fourth bag of fenugreek since July 19th will be empty. I opened it on December 20th, so that's 250 g in 12+31+29+29=101 days, or 2,500 mg a day. That's more like the dose I want. I took twice that in 2011.

Eve M used 1,800 mg, and I assume she weighed about 120 lbs back then. I'm around 180 lbs, so I should be using one and a half times her dose. That's 2,400 mg.

I still don't have any estrogen dominance symptoms:
headaches: never
foggy thinking: rarely
low libido: every morning, I wake up to an explosive situation, which is kinda hard to defuse
bloated ankles: lean like chicken feet
feeling depressed: less than ever

so I must assume the fenugreek is still doing its job. I know some people on the forum don't believe it increases progesterone, but it's the only possible source of progesterone or progestins in my program. And I'm certainly not imbalanced, so...

[Pansy-Mae]

This afternoon, the fourth bag of fenugreek since July 19th will be empty. I opened it on December 20th, so that's 250 g in 12+31+29+29=101 days, or 2,500 mg a day. That's more like the dose I want. I took twice that in 2011.

Eve M used 1,800 mg, and I assume she weighed about 120 lbs back then. I'm around 180 lbs, so I should be using one and a half times her dose. That's 2,400 mg.

....so I must assume the fenugreek is still doing its job.

I've taken 2x 610mg FG capsules, twice a day ( i.e 2440mg per day) since early January this year. The only effect that I can positively attribute to the FG is low blood sugar. All my life I have occasionally suffered these effects anyway so I do recognise them. Since the beginning of this week I've taken an FG break and I have to say I feel better in myself ( but hungrier and less able to control the hunger pangs!), and for the last two nights I have slept better than for a long time, although the sleeping may be coincidence.

I know some people on the forum don't believe it increases progesterone, but it's the only possible source of progesterone or progestins in my program. And I'm certainly not imbalanced, so...

I have no opinion on that one way or the other, although I can't see that it has had any noticeable effect on me in 3 months, either in terms of volume or shape. I'll probably start the FG again in a short while anyway.


Edited to add: It's just occurred to me that since I've been losing weight steadily over the past few months, I probably ought to lower my FG dose in step with the weight loss. Currently I'm at about 150lbs ( at least I was this time yesterday, but I had an illicit plate of sausages and mashed potato last night and haven't checked yet this morning.....) so on the Eve M ratio, I ought to be taking about 2250mg per day and not the 2440mg I have been taking. That could be the source of the increased low blood sugar effects.

[Isabelle]

Hi Pansy Mae,

Glad you mentioned the sleep. Insomnia is a symptom of low progesterone and of estrogen dominance. Last night, I took very little fenugreek, and this morning, I woke up at 3:30, but that's once in three months. So I don't want to draw the conclusion I'm taking too little fenugreek. But I once slept badly before, after lowering fenugreek and increasing maca:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=39496#pid39496
In you, it appears to work the other way round.

I got to appreciate fenugreek during my party days. On the day of the party, I took up to 9 g of hops and well over 10 g of fenugreek. The hops doesn't do much in one night, but I'm pretty sure the fenugreek helped swelling. I also should have fallen asleep on so much hops. I can't tell if the high fenugreek made that better or worse.

You can try a high dose and see if it swells. In my program, goat's rue has taken over that role. The fenugreek is for prevention of another experience like that horrible night on maca.