[Isabelle]

Thank you for the edit, Pansy Mae,

It makes more sense now. "Sleep disturbances" are also a symptom of too much progesterone. Check the list I linked here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=36567#pid36567
Cravings are on it too

[Pansy-Mae]

Hi Pansy Mae,

Glad you mentioned the sleep. Insomnia is a symptom of low progesterone and of estrogen dominance.
It's been several years since I had routine good night sleeps, long before I started on NBE and I've more or less assumed it is just an age effect. As I said, the last couple of nights may well just be coincidence.

Last night, I took very little fenugreek, and this morning, I woke up at 3:30, but that's once in three months.


I almost always wake up around then!

You can try a high dose and see if it swells.

I'm tempted but OTOH, I really don't want the fainting and the inability to concentrate as the result of low blood sugar. It really isn't much fun getting up to go to the bathroom at 2-30 and regaining conciousness due to my head hitting the wall on its way to the floor!

[lostacres6]

Hello Isabelle,
You mentioned symptoms of estrogen dominance. I have several of those symptoms. Does estrogen dominance cause "no growth" or stalling? Will increasing the progesterone counter the estrogen dominance? I seemed to have hit a brick wall. The only thing I changed was adding an extra dose of PM (100 mg Siriporn in AM & PM & 500 mg Ainterol PM at noon) and using Eve's booby batter (hops, soy, oats & borage oil) at bedtime.
Thanks again & again & again for your help.

[Isabelle]

Sorry lostacres6,

If I understand the situation correctly, the only option is to lower the phyto-estrogens, like stopping the extra dose of PM. Increasing progesterone will stop the estrogen dominance symptoms, but it will not get you out of the stall. On the contrary, it will make it worse.

[Isabelle]

The researchers who identified the bacteria that make the phyto-estrogen 8-prenylnaringenin from isoxanthohumol in hops found a way to include the bacteria as a probiotic in the supplement:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.11...x/abstract

Their supplement is expensive, but because of the way it works, just a little of it should increase the response to any hops supplement or raw hops taken with it. Their supplement is marketed as "menohop" here in the Netherlands. I respond well to hops, so I can't test it. Maybe this is a good experiment for someone who didn't respond to hops, and is left with a big stock of it.

[NotSoBusty]

Sorry lostacres6,

If I understand the situation correctly, the only option is to lower the phyto-estrogens, like stopping the extra dose of PM. Increasing progesterone will stop the estrogen dominance symptoms, but it will not get you out of the stall. On the contrary, it will make it worse.

AH! I have learned something new now, but of course I have questions. How will increasing your progesterone to counteract estrogen dominance make your stalling worse? (sorry for the complete lack of understanding...)

[Isabelle]

Hi NotSoBusty,

My understanding of stalling is that the anterior pituitary gland adds up all the sex hormones, and if the total is too high, it decreases LH. The lower LH then decreases all sex hormones, including estrogens.

So if estrogens are already too high, and somebody stalls, adding progesterone will only increase the total sum of sex hormone levels, and make LH even lower.

Don't assume you are ignorant on this, in fact I have had serious doubts about writing this answer to lostacres6. She is postmenopausal, and her LH is probably high to start with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luteinizing_hormone

She's too young to get into any serious trouble now, but a consistent effort to keep LH high over the next 20 years may increase the risk for Alzheimer's Disease. So this is not as simple as my previous answer may look. I consider myself ignorant too in this area, but for you, it's easy to try out. Invest in a couple of LH fertile days test kits. Use PC, and see if LH drops.

[NotSoBusty]

Hmmm, okay! I will keep this in mind! If I ever find my PC cream, I will put this theory to the test!

[Isabelle]

I just answered mochaccino's question about Nature's Answer and Solgar PM:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11525&pid=47364#pid47364

It leaves me wondering how good the PM on the market in the EU is. Biovea are still selling it. But they went up in price to £19.95 (€ 23.96) for 100 capsules of 500 mg:
http://www.biovea.com/uk/results.aspx?PageNo=1&KW=pueraria
and the "Acceptance of Contract terms" at the bottom of this page
http://www.biovea.com/uk/display.aspx?WID=25
make it absolutely clear that they don't guarantee anything outside money back. It even specifies that "It is your responsibility to make sure that you are allowed to import nutritional supplements and beauty products from the U.S.A."

Ainterol is only € 11.30:
http://www.ainterol.co.uk/products/Puera...ps%29.html
and at least quite a few forum members have grown on that.

I already pointed out that Thanyaporn may be a better deal now:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9541&pid=46789#pid46789

[Isabelle]

This is the text of the European Directive on food supplements:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexU...46:EN:HTML
The ban on megadose vitamin supplements is in Article 5.

This is the European Directive on traditional herbal medicinal products:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexU...24:EN:HTML
The criteria for a simplified registration procedure (referred to as 'traditional-use registration') are listed in article 16a. The procedure is simplified in comparison with the procedure for pharmaceuticals. The simplification is basically an exemption from the requirement for clinical trials. The exemption is only intended for use in those cases where clinical trials do not prove the effectiveness of a product. The exemption is only granted if the efficacy of the medicinal product is plausible on the basis of long-standing use and experience.

So the principle is still that an effective herbal medicinal product should go for full registration as a pharmaceutical product. It looks like the main goal of the exemption is to save the homeopathic industry in Europe the trouble of having to prove that their products actually work. An added benefit is that people can still sell hops without proving that it grows breasts.

There is a list of herbs, which is regularly updated. PM is not on it yet, hops is.

This is the website of the Committee on Herbal Medicinal Products (HMPC):
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/about_us/general/general_content_000264.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac0580028e7c&jsenabled=true

and this is the list:
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=%2Fpages%2Fmedicines%2Flanding%2Fherbal_search.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058001fa1d&searchkwByEnter=false&alreadyLoaded=true&isNewQuery=true&startLetter=H&keyword=Enter+keywords&searchType=Latin+name+of+the+genus&taxonomyPath=&treeNumber=