[pingpong]

Hello everyone,

I'm seeking some advice on how to proceed with my NBE journey...

I've been making tea from fenugreek+fennel seed powder 4 days a week and fennel+fenugreek seed 3 days a week (little stronger and the taste isn't super appealing) since January - my breasts have felt a bit painful, full and tingly over the last three months but I have not had any major gains so now I'm wondering if it's anything more than water retention...

I started off using 1 TBSP of each herb a day and have progressed to 2.5 TBSPs a day along with a five minute massage in both the morning and evening, followed with a fenugreek/fennel mask applied to my breasts overnight including at least 20mins cuddling with my heating pad :).

My question is if it sounds as though I should add any other herbs to my routine or even take a break at some point? Also I was wondering if I would be better off making my own extracts since they bypass the liver thus being more readily absorbed? I'm very patient so I don't mind a slow and steady approach but it would be nice to know if I'm headed on the right path! :P

I should mention that I'm already a very full 32D/not so full 32DD so it's not like I'm completely unhappy with my size but it would be lovely if I could gain a cup size or two just to feel more well proportioned...

Thanks and Happy Growing! :D

[surferjoe2007]

You may want to add a phytoestrogen to balance out the other two herbs. Pueraria mirifica is the strongest, or hops is milder or red clover is milder still. There's a PM section of the forums for details. I've read up to 1800 mg for hops and red clover should only need a few hundred mg (and a low amount is better). You may want saw palmetto extract as an anti-androgen. Some source of collagen or sulphur to make elastic support tissue may be helpful.

Extracts are easier on the stomach but they aren't essential. A lot of people make tea.

[pingpong]

Hi surferjoe,

Thanks so much for your reply! I think you're right about needing a strong source of phyto-estrogen, although I drink 1-2 cups of organic soy milk a day I think the fullness I've been feeling could be from the progesterone... I also drink 3-5 cups of peppermint tea which I believe acts as my anti-androgen.

Since reading your response I began to research PM thoroughly and am becoming a little confused with all the info...

From what I gather there are two cycling methods - Bella's in which you begin PM after your period for 14 days and Chiyomilk's in which you begin taking PM from day 1-14. Is the method you choose dependent upon your BC method? I am not currently on BC and my cycle is very stable (unless I'm extremely stressed out) so would Bella's method be the wiser choice for me? And if I do begin taking PM from day 8-22 could I still take FN and FG the rest of the time?

Also, I eat 3 tbsps of ground flaxseed/day which I understand might hinder NBE because they're so high in lignans, is this correct? I prefer keeping supplements to a minimum and getting most of my nutritional requirements from a healthy diet and consequently discovered that my diet is already rich in sulfur & collagen promoting foods:

http://www.wisegeek.com/which-foods-cont...llagen.htm

Hopefully that's sufficient but I can add supplements if a much higher dose is needed.

Phew, okay that's all for now... I know there's a lot of information on the boards already so sorry if these questions have been asked before! I'm trying to do as much research as possible it's just a little difficult to assimilate all this data at once! Ho hum...

[jiberish]

fenugreek and fennel contain phytoestrogens.

If you overload on phytoestrogens. You will get to a stage of negative feedback and your growth will stall.

IMO use fenugreek/fennel OR Pueraria mirifica. Essentially they all fight for the same receptors so overloading is pointless.

Chiyo took after her period too.

[surferjoe2007]

A lot of people have combined FG and PM very successfully. FG isn't a true phytoestrogen so it works well. But soy and whole flax seeds are. Flax and red clover are particularly high in weak phytoestrogens which can flood receptors and block estrogen and stronger phytoestrogens. Even 400 mg red clover is popular for controlling excess estrogen. Soy has far less so it takes far more to flood receptors. I'm not sure about fennel but I think it's more for prolactin & progesterone than as a phytoestrogen. You could try flax oil instead of flax seeds to avoid the lignans. Or you could eat chia seeds which are omega 3 rich, nutrient rich in general, and lignan free. In particular only 1 tbsp. has 100% the recommended omega 3s, 10% calcium, 10% magnesium, 4% iron, 4% zinc and a few % of a variety of B vitamins.

Sulfur has the problem of being in everything, but not in particularly large amounts in any one food. Even major sources are around 50 mg. You can eat connective tissue foods like tendon and so on to get it or if everything you eat is sulfur rich it could add up, otherwise a little MSM wouldn't hurt.

I can't say I know much about cycling PM; better to ask in that forum section. Since fennel is for prolactin you might cycle it too, on days when not taking PM.

[pingpong]

Oh dear this is far more complex that I had previously envisioned haha

So you really need to find the perfect dose of phytoestrogens in order to avoid flooding your receptors and stalling growth... Humm okay, so if FG isn't a strong phytoestrogen what's the main source of estrogen in Kit #2 from Greenbush? I don't want to use it, I'm just curious as it keeps coming up in the forum.

Wow I had no idea chia seeds were so rich in nutrients! I'll replace them for flax seed once I run out.

ha well I was a vegetarian for 8 years and just added poultry and fish into my diet during the last two months, so I'm not sure if I can stomach tendons and whatnot yet...in which case MSM would be preferable! : )

Thanks so much - looks like I have some more info to sift through but this was very helpful!

PS Chiyo used PM after her period as well?? So is PM always used for either 7-14 days after your period?

[surferjoe2007]

Fenugreek is strong, it's just not a real phytoestrogen. It seems to unregulate the effects of estrogen, prolactin, progesterone, insulin, testosterone, etc. Whatever you already have is more effective, so even straight men can use it. You can't have too much of it. I've seen animal studies done with the human equivalent of 17,000 mg and 125,000 mg. Though the second was harmful and even 6,000 mg might give you an upset stomach if it's not a tea or extract, thanks to the fiber. And hypoglycemics may want to be careful around the increased insulin sensitivity. Wild yam is similar to FG. Greenbush doesn't include a real phytoestrogen, so it's fine to add one if you want. Saturating the receptors is more likely with red clover or whole flax seed (oil is ok) since they have large amounts of weak phytoestrogens. It's much less likely with PM or hops which have small amounts of strong phytoestrogens instead.