[Isabelle]

I have eaten 1 kg of chocolates in three days, and two bowls of cereals instead of one. Sunday is normally the low point in my weekly weight cycle, but this morning, I weigh 80.5 kg. Body Mass Index (BMI) is 25.3, so slightly overweight again. I have a feeling the carb cravings are from the L-arginine, so I'll have to watch my diet over the next month.

Yesterday, I read in prof. Swaab's book
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34832#pid34832
that small differences in the DNA that codes for the dopamine receptor make some people get hallucinations easier than others. Hops increases dopamine, and in the last weeks, whenever I had three small tablespoons instead of two, I woke up with vivid dreams that were very useful in therapy.

Last night, I had another go at it, but I just woke up thinking about a discovery I never really published in 25 years. I hope it doesn't mean I should go back into oil research, because I've had my share of bureaucracy and gloomy office blocks. I really need to walk in the sunlight. Maybe I should just start drafting some good NBE guidelines for the starters forum. One about stalling could be useful. And one about the four main functions of NBE: estrogens, progestins, anti-androgens, and prolactin.

[cupcake85]

Isabelle,
I have been reading on this forum and I've seen posts say that Fenugreek is estrogenic and I see other posts that say its progestenic.
I have searched online on different websites and found that it is considered both. I read in your post that Fenugreek has very little phytoestrogens for it to have any effect on NBE.
I read on another website that said "Fenugreek is rich in phytoestrogens".

I am so confused.
I guess I am just worried that I will be increasing estrogen during luteal phase while I really should be increasing my progesterone.
I wish you can shed some light on this subject.
I appreciate this wonderful thread of yours and I appreciate how you reply back to every post. You really are amazing!
I am looking forward for your response. Thank you very much.

[Isabelle]

Thank you cupcake,

Here's the USDA list of isoflavone contents in foods:
http://afrsweb.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Pla...lav_R2.pdf
Ctrl-F "fenugreek" and you will see that it does contain the four isoflavones: genistein, daidzein, formononetin, and biochanin A. In a way, that's richer than soy, which contains only genistein and daidzein. But the content of each of these four phyto-estrogens in fenugreek is ten times lower than in red clover. So for practical use in NBE, fenugreek is ten times less effective as a source of phyto-estrogens than red clover. That's why I call it negligible.

As far as I know, fenugreek doesn't contain any phyto-progestins either. But like wild yam, it contains diosgenin. Diosgenin has been used as a raw material for the industrial synthesis of progesterone. Especially web sites that sell progesterone cream keep stressing that the human body cannot perform the biochemical reaction steps that are necessary to convert diosgenin to progesterone. But there are enough publications showing that progesterone and prolactin increase in humans and other mammals who take diosgenin. That's why I consider fenugreek a source of progesterone and prolactin.

Many people on the forum have successfully done this little experiment: when they got a headache because of estrogen dominance from PM or hops, they took fenugreek and the headache stopped. That is a strong indication that fenugreek restores the balance between estrogens and progesterone.

The main reason for the success of fenugreek in NBE is that it puts on weight while slimming the waist. It slims the waist because it improves insulin sensitivity. Saw palmetto puts weight on the thighs and in cellulite, but with fenugreek alone, without saw palmetto, the extra weight seems to have nowhere else to go but the breasts.

Because technically, fenugreek contains no phyto-progestins, many programs and formulas that need it for the progestogenic effect, combine it with a small dose of fennel. The dose must be small because progestins can cause stalling too. This is also a reason not to use red clover, which contains as much phyto-progestins as phyto-estrogens.

The above does not explain why fenugreek is more successful than wild yam. I really don't know. I explained two other advantages of wild yam here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11639&pid=48282#pid48282
Wild yam limits the metabolism of estrone and it contains an anti-androgen. Fenugreek doesn't, so it's always combined with either wild yam or with a source of phyto-estrogens and an anti-androgen. The phyto-estrogens are usually from hops or red clover or PM, and the anti-androgen is traditionally saw palmetto.

Taking fenugreek alone is probably not effective. Fenugreek based programs traditionally have fenugreek-fennel-saw palmetto as a back bone, and add wild yam or hops or red clover. Because hops contains anti-androgens too, the saw palmetto can be dropped.

[karen]

Thank you cupcake,

Here's the USDA list of isoflavone contents in foods:
http://afrsweb.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Pla...lav_R2.pdf
Ctrl-F "fenugreek" and you will see that it does contain the four isoflavones: genistein, daidzein, formononetin, and biochanin A. In a way, that's richer than soy, which contains only genistein and daidzein. But the content of each of these four phyto-estrogens in fenugreek is ten times lower than in red clover. So for practical use in NBE, fenugreek is ten times less effective as a source of phyto-estrogens than red clover. That's why I call it negligible.

As far as I know, fenugreek doesn't contain any phyto-progestins either. But like wild yam, it contains diosgenin. Diosgenin has been used as a raw material for the industrial synthesis of progesterone. Especially web sites that sell progesterone cream keep stressing that the human body cannot perform the biochemical reaction steps that are necessary to convert diosgenin to progesterone. But there are enough publications showing that progesterone and prolactin increase in humans and other mammals who take diosgenin. That's why I consider fenugreek a source of progesterone and prolactin.

Many people on the forum have successfully done this little experiment: when they got a headache because of estrogen dominance from PM or hops, they took fenugreek and the headache stopped. That is a strong indication that fenugreek restores the balance between estrogens and progesterone.

The main reason for the success of fenugreek in NBE is that it puts on weight while slimming the waist. It slims the waist because it improves insulin sensitivity. Saw palmetto puts weight on the thighs and in cellulite, but with fenugreek alone, without saw palmetto, the extra weight seems to have nowhere else to go but the breasts.

Because technically, fenugreek contains no phyto-progestins, many programs and formulas that need it for the progestogenic effect, combine it with a small dose of fennel. The dose must be small because progestins can cause stalling too. This is also a reason not to use red clover, which contains as much phyto-progestins as phyto-estrogens.

The above does not explain why fenugreek is more successful than wild yam. I really don't know. I explained two other advantages of wild yam here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11639&pid=48282#pid48282
Wild yam limits the metabolism of estrone and it contains an anti-androgen. Fenugreek doesn't, so it's always combined with either wild yam or with a source of phyto-estrogens and an anti-androgen. The phyto-estrogens are usually from hops or red clover or PM, and the anti-androgen is traditionally saw palmetto.

Taking fenugreek alone is probably not effective. Fenugreek based programs traditionally have fenugreek-fennel-saw palmetto as a back bone, and add wild yam or hops or red clover. Because hops contains anti-androgens too, the saw palmetto can be dropped.

Great Post with Great Explanations with Supporting Documentation.

From one "Analyst to another" .... hats off .... a "Keeper" in my reference library.

Karen

[joyland]

Maybe I should just start drafting some good NBE guidelines for the starters forum. One about stalling could be useful. And one about the four main functions of NBE: estrogens, progestins, anti-androgens, and prolactin.

Do it!!!!

I can't ever read enough about it and you have such a lovely way of writing things so clearly

[cupcake85]

Wow Isabelle!
Thank you for that!
I appreciate all the information you have given us!
I have a clear understanding now thanks to you!

[Isabelle]

Thank you karen, Joyland, and cupcake,

I haven't started writing the NBE crash course yet, but then I had two great days with the kids

I still have the carbs cravings, and I'm pretty sure it's the L-arginine. But since it costs four times my whole normal NBE budget, I want to finish what I have before end May as planned. At least by then I'll know if I even want to buy more.

I just finished prof. Swaab's book, and since he's a neuro-endocrinologist, he extensively discusses the role of each hormone in the brain. He links depression to an over-active stress axis, so if hops causes depression, could it increase cortisol? Vasopressin (ADH) regulates the body's water content, so it must have an interaction with prolactin and an effect on swelling. These are only two examples: I've obviously got to do some more reading.

[Isabelle]

Another empty box of oat flakes after tonight. My younger daughter used 40 g, so I had 500-40=460g in 31+24=55 days is 8,400 mg a day.

That's the sort of dose I want: as long as it's well above the flax dose, but not high enough to cause androgen symptoms.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hey Isabelle,

How is it going..I have been busy.. quick question..haha I hope.. well been on maca for over 2 weeks then just about a week ago I added SP well period went really well very low pain and not very heavy..but since adding the SP I think I am seeing that dam cellulite again and when I stop SP it goes away..my question is if I take FG or GR will my waist slim down and will I not get the cellulite or lets say will that go away..what is in SP that gives this kind of weight gain..yuk..I am only taking it for DHT blocking and maybe some tita gain as a bonus..is SP the only one that blocks the androgens the best if not what would be next best thing of course other then hops..and I believe the SP is helping my acne too.. and I think maca makes my pores bigger..so not sure if I want to continue both or just keep maca low dose, the most I have taken is a level teaspoon or 3 caps that come to about 1500 mgs..as for SP I went from 450 mg per day to 2 450 mgs a day then went down cause I was getting headaches now I havent taken any herbs at all..so if I added FG or GR with the other 2 would it not give me the cellulite..I believe SP is high in not the good fat..can something be added to counteract this effect..Is SP the only thing that inhibits both forms of 5-alpha-reductase..and is it the strongest one to use..also SP does give me food cravings..I am wondering if I keep my diet as low in sat. fat as possible if that would help the added cellulite..I read that SP is rich in fatty acids but which ones..as for maca it has alot of other good nutrients I really dont want to stop either one..the 2 together are working nice for my acne so far and period..not sure if it was the maca or SP that helped the period I think it was more of maca that did..anyway.. maybe should I ..hmmmm drop SP and add PM back but the maca and PM combo wasnt really good for me and does PM have the same blocking DHT as SP..what I did like about PM it did give me good curves too and was looking good with maca..right now I have a gut and cellulite on the but..it was looking better before I added SP back and it came on fast too..cause a few days before my cellulite was looking not bad then added SP and within a few days I look..yuko..I am wondering is this from SP itself or is SP having me get things I shouldnt or is SP not letting me process my fats right and end result is cellulite....wow so sorry for rambling..maybe this will help others too..with your expert thoughts..Thank you again for your time..

[lostacres6]

Hi Isabelle,
Question for you: It has been 4 mo. since I started PM/FG/GR & no noticible growth. You said to change programs if no results in 4 mo. So I decided to stop NBE for a month then restart with Eve's program. Would it be beneficial to continue the GR alone? If I did get any swelling with GR, I'd hate to lose it.
Thanks & have a great day.