[karen]

Morning Everyone ....

Well about 4 days ago I decided to stop everything (well sorta ... I didn't stop my Testim.) Over those 4 days everything that had gotten larger went bye bye. I knew (or thought anyway) that there wasn't any permanent growth there BUT I was surpised how quickly it went away.

I'm not as intent on having breasts as I am to learn and understand all of these herbs and what they can do. If I were able to switch back and forth between being a man and a woman at will I would be in 7th heaven.

So this morning I decided to try something else .... I added Saw Palmetto.

More questions for that knowledge base of yours Isabelle ...

I think we chatted about there being two types of Anti-androgen ... Type 1 and type 2 ... I don't remember which was which Hops T1 or T2 and SP T1 or T2 ... but here's the new experiment.

I took 2,000 mg of Hops in water this AM ... primary purpose is as an Anti-androgen .... I also took 1,000 mg of SP in water ... again as an Anti-androgen .... my plan is to take this dosage twice a day 12 hours apart to maintain a level of Type 1 and Type 2 Anti-androgens in my system.

What are you thoughts so far ... dosage and plan?

Maybe an hour later I'm going to follow up with my Tube of Testim .... that will give the Hops/SP a chance to do there thing before the T is started to get into my system.

Then I am going to add Hops in Yogurt as Phyto-estrogens kickers during the day and evening .... maybe 2,000 here and there ... maybe twice a day.

I'm thinking I will not do anything with FG at first ... I want to see/feel what goes on .... I want to watch for the signs of too much estrogen and figure what how much does what before I dampen it with FG ...

So that's the latest .... I'd love your comments and suggestions.

Your friend .... Karen

[Isabelle]

Good morning Karen,

There are five 5α-reductase types (isozymes):
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=43621#pid43621

I'm not sure, but I assume hops inhibits mainly type 1 because it stops acne. SP probably inhibits both types 1 and 2. The dose depends on what SP preparation you have. You need 3,000 mg of powdered whole berries, or 600 mg of a typical extract.

Interested to read about what you find

[karen]

This is the Saw Palmetto

http://www.naturesanswer.com/p-994-saw-p...y-2oz.aspx

This is the Hops

http://www.naturesanswer.com/p-709-hops-...e-1oz.aspx

28 drops of the SP (1,000 mg according to Natures answer folks) and 56 drops of the Hops (2,000 mg again according to Natures answer folks)

• 6:15 AM … 28 drops of SP (1,000 mg)
• 6:15 AM … 56 drops of Hops (2,000 mg)
• 7:45 AM … 1 fully squeezed tube of Testim (90 minutes after SP & Hops)

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

Three times a day 28 drops SP should be enough, because it's a 1:1 extract. My hops dose is equivalent to 3 * 28 drops in one go at night.

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Isabelle,

Well someone asking the same question on anti-androgens, thank you Karen and yes Isabelle that was the thread where I posted in the wrong place... I skimmed through that other link about the 5a-R's and they said 5a-R1 is responsible for womens hairloss and maybe acne..so SP would help, what else..oh yeah maybe zinc and doesnt maca have high nutrients of zinc..I know it is high in Iodine..maybe that is why some breakout from it and some dont..cause if you get too much zinc it could make it worse?..haha the balancing act once again..

I have another question that maybe dumb.. If your estrogen dom.. would that be all 3 estrogens making you dom.. and is PM and hops the main ones to up estrioal sp? (the main estrogen sorry forgot how to spell it)..

I think I will add a small dose of SP.. oh the tiredness started when I was just taking maca only too.. I did get some get up and go with SP.. also I took maca and barley grass yesterday with my veggie drink and then about an hour or so later had a good egg breakfast with 1 slice or ww bread and a glass with FG milk/water and cinnamon..and my energy was better..

Thank you Karen for asking the question about anti-androgens.. also you mentioned taking hops with water.. Isabelle should it be not just straight water but made into a tea for the anti-androgen effect..just wanted to clearify that if it was missed.

OK Isabelle.. was thinking while in the shower and notice alot of shedding.. I was doing really well on maca only and when add SP it was going ok except for the cellulite.. I am thinking it is the FG cause every time I add it I get crazy symptoms...everything was going good up until day.. so I am going to just take maca, SP, and maybe add GR at night..for some reason I dont think GR bothers me like FG..dont know why but for now just maca, SP and maybe in a few days or so PM..yes I said PM..I am doing this just for my androgen problem so dont know what else to do.. Isabelle if you block the right androgen would the hormones change in the body..thinking almost like Karen is thinking.. If I block my androgen that would change my estrogen levels..correct.. maybe I just need SP only and nothing else..but I do like maca..dont know why but so far it is was doing good along with the SP..cause SP gave me some energy..the PCOS forum girls are taking maca and some having good result (well for getting prego) so it does work for that..and I have read some taking SP ..some it works for and some it doesnt unless they are not giving it a long enough chance.. all I know is that FG, WY, or barley grass are effecting my hair so far.. If I take maca and SP then maybe add PM after a few weeks and see what happens but the maca and SP first..I really think it is the FG effecting me not so good which sucks cause I think it was helping my tummy..but I was feeling worse at times of the day too on it..so sorry for rambling again..also thinking out loud..

[karen]

Hi beachbumbythesea ....

I wanted to roll something into the equation here that I think is important. 1st ... probably kinda obvious, I'm a biological male.

2nd .. last summer I was diagnosed with real low Testosterone Levels (around 185 which is way low) Those low levels were making real moody, despressed, no energy ... really crappo. So I started taking Testosterone replacement therapy. All sort of things spun off of that, but thats another story .... but the important thing is that TRT causes LH Levels to go down to almost nothing .... I believe 7 is the low end ... mine got to being < .2 (yes thats LESS THAN POINT TWO) What this basically means it I produce NO TESTOSTERONE on my own. What also means is that LH no longer regulates my overall hormone levels ..... I can overload with phyto-estrogens without worrying about stalling. I'm not an expert about womens hormones but I'm assuming that if a womens estrogen goes too high then her LH and FSH levesl will adjust to prevent her from producing her own ... STALL.

Just food for thought ... although allot of the effects of Herbs on me
may be similar don't pay all that much attention to the quantities.

I'm also interested if it matters if the Hops are in Tea or with plain water .... the scientific side of me says it should not matter ... I suspect Isabelle uses teas because (I think) she uses dried ground hops .... I use liquid extract .... but we'll see

Karen

[beachbumbythesea]

Hi Karen,

Nice to meet you..and I wish my dad would stop talking to me, it is distracting..grrr..but not going to be mean and tell him to stop talking..haha..so bare with me.. so lets see.. I think I have DHT problems and believe I need to block the one for hairloss..oh I am a female and 48 years old.. every time I get my hormones checked they come out fine.. but anyway..I feel my androgens are not right.. or if my progestrone is low and estrogen is low they say that can make you estrogen dom and high testostrone..so far maca is doing good..but I think FG messes me up..Oh Isabelle I read about the DIM and I guess maca metabilizes the estrogen..I read that DIM metabilizes estrogen especially the Estradiol sp?..right?..so this may be good and bad for me..so PM maybe good to add..also how do I know if hairloss is from too low estrogen cause this can cause this too..havent had hormones checked in about 3 yrs..but I have had normal levels and still this symptom and have read on other forums the same..so that is what makes me think 5a-r2 blocking..since being on maca my acne has leveled, meaning it has lessed but still there but not worse "yet"..

Oh you mentioned extract of hops then I believe it is already in an anti state..for some reason I remember Isabelle saying making it into a tea but I had powdered..I guess extract would be totally dif..

[lostacres6]

Hello Isabelle,
Have you ever heard of "bogus" GR? I started "shrinking" about a month ago - didn't change anything except the GR manufacturer (same dosage, different company). Then I ran out & restarted "Mother's Love" GR & I feel a slight more fullness. Both bottles have the same botanical name but do you think one may be weaker/stronger or something else as to why one wasn't working?
Thanks & have a great day.

[Isabelle]

Hi Susan,

Azelaic acid has a good track record in acne. It's in barley grass, but also in rye and in other whole grain cereals. Zinc is an anti-androgen, but it becomes an androgen above 80 mg. That's really a lot, I doubt if anyone takes that much. Above 35 mg, zinc decreases prolactin. Recommended Dietary Intake is 12 mg, and 13 for pregnant or lactating women. This text says maca is high in zinc, but it doesn't say how much is in it:
http://www.ahealthya.com/maca_composition.htm
Vitamin B6 is also an anti-androgen. Borage oil is another one with a good track record for hair loss, but if it makes your skin oily, it's out. Flax contains another anti-androgen, so that may be worth trying too. Or maybe pygeum bark.

I think estrogen dominance is mainly caused by estradiol, because the other estrogens appear weaker in tests. Estriol just metabolizes faster, so it appears to be weaker, unless you keep making it, like in pregnancy.

I remember I slept poorly on SP, so it may give you energy, yes. ADD makes you respond differently to stimulants, though. On coffee, I become erratic, but it helps you focus.

I don't think tea or water makes a difference for hops, but extracts in alcohol are less sedative:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41761#pid41761

GR causes only swelling and better insulin sensitivity, no progesterone increase like FG. Some women report acne on FG, but I still don't know how that happens, although it's logical if they cycle it with PM and don't take an anti-androgen in the second half of their cycles. If you block DHT efficiently, like with SP, both estrogens and progesterone will increase with LH, but that won't work for Karen because her LH is zero.

Maca improves fertility in women. Maca also metabolizes to DIM. DIM metabolizes estrogens:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10855&pid=42585#pid42585
So maca may be better in case of estrogen dominance only. But it's really strange that it levelled out your acne. Most women break out on it.

[Isabelle]

Hi lostacres6,

Are you sure the other extract is the same strength as Motherlove's? I remember checking the strength of Motherlove's with idreamfoD in her picture thread, and that extract was stronger than I expected. I can imagine other extracts are not as strong. And for some reason, I have to use a lot of goat's to see an effect. At my 175 lbs, I need 4,500 mg for good swelling. At 3,000 mg, I notice hardly anything.