[Isabelle]

You're welcome, magareea,

and yes, Karen,

That's how I read it. But don't draw any conclusions before you tried it. Yogurt has advantages too. I read somewhere that yogurt is the fastest way to get something to your liver, and for fenugreek, that's an advantage. Moreover, hops relies on intestinal bacteria, and yogurt is a probiotic, so it may even help.

[karen]

I don't think we will ever run out of new things to read about.

This article has lots of information about the wonders of Hormones.

http://slawomirambroziak.pl/english/secrects_of_dht/

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

These people are in for a surprise. I've been on soy - this is the first time I'm really taking isoflavones - for just three days, and my breasts h-u-r-t. Yesterday, it was just tingles. Last night, I woke up at 23:30 from really aching breasts. Just wait and see where this goes...

[karen]

Hi Karen,

These people are in for a surprise. I've been on soy - this is the first time I'm really taking isoflavones - for just three days, and my breasts h-u-r-t. Yesterday, it was just tingles. Last night, I woke up at 23:30 from really aching breasts. Just wait and see where this goes...

If you need me to massage them for you just let me know

Karen

Guess I should ask what you are taking and how much? I got carried away ..... Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

My program is still as in my profile. I added 10 g L-arginine a month ago, and I'm just eating my fourth dose of soy, about 1,000 mg.

[karen]

My program is still as in my profile.

I never looked there ..... HA

Did you get a soy powder or capsules or what?

If that can truly add phyto-estrogens to assist the estradiol that my body is creating by me blocking DHT that would be VERY INTERESTING. So obvious that it was too easy to overlook

Must be a reading day .... found this too

http://www.cspinet.org/nah/soy/soy.html

And this

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/ph...ls/soyiso/


Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

I bought soy meal, like Eve M.

Be careful while reading soy literature. It's very easy to stall on. So many researchers report anti-estrogenic effects, but they just overdosed soy without knowing it.

[karen]

It's very easy to stall on. So many researchers report anti-estrogenic effects, but they just overdosed soy without knowing it.

Could I stall? Even though my LH/FSH don't come into play? Is the anti-estrogenic effect cause estradiol goes too high, lowers LH/FSH and a person would normally stop producing natural hormones ... cause we know I wouldn't have that problem with my "hormones in a tube" Or is it for some other reason

Karen

[karen]

Morning Isabelle,

I've been looking around at Soy Products .... USDA Database sure has lots of information.

Do you have the isoflavones (daidzein, genistein, glycitein) breakdown (mg/100mg) for the Soy Meal that you're using. That would be a BIG Help for determining equivalents for other products that contain those isoflavones. When you say you use 1000 mg per day, I'm assuming that you use 1000 mg of Soy Meal ... and that would convert into an isoflavone breakdown based on the amount per 100 mg of meal that soy meal contains.

For example if I look at "Soybeans, flakes, defatted" it contains 37.47 daidzein, 91.22 genistein, and 14.23 glycitein per 100 mg of flakes. So for 1000 mg of flakes I'd end up with 374 daidzein, 912 genistein, and 142 glycitein.

I'm also seeing that the one that we'd like is daidzein ... cause it can metabolize into S-equol (which is similar to estradiol) BUT HERE'S THE CATCH.

"Daidzein, when consumed from soy, is transformed in some, but not all, humans to produce S-Equol [7-hydroxy-3-(49-hydroxyphenyl)-chroman], which may have some health benefits, particularly the reduction of some menopausal symptoms. Because it is a metabolite of daidzein, S-equol is not of plant origin. The molecular and physical structure of S-equol is similar to that of estradiol, the main sex hormone found in women.

The ability to transform daidzein into S-equol is based on the presence of certain intestinal bacteria. In fact, several studies indicate that only 25 to 30 percent of the adult population of Western countries produces S-equol after eating soy foods containing isoflavones, significantly lower than the reported 50 to 60 percent frequency of equol-producers in adults from Japan, Korea, or China."

So as they say "Your Mileage may vary"

BUT ... I'm willing to give it a try ... maybe I'm in that 25-30%

Karen

I got REAL Curious and it was better than working

Here's what I GUESS-TIMATED using the USDA Charts


Per 1000 mg of the Product
------------------------------------------------------------------
Product Daidzein Genistein Glycitein Total
------------------------------------------------------------------
Soybeans, mature seeds, 613.3 863.3 133.3 1599.8
raw (United States)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Soy Meal, defatted, raw 807.7 1147.1 161.2 2095.8
------------------------------------------------------------------
Soy Protein Isolate 308.1 572.8 85.4 910.5
------------------------------------------------------------------
Soybeans, mature seeds, 621.4 757.8 133.3 1485
dry roasted (includes soy nuts)
------------------------------------------------------------------

So if Soy Meal were the standard to be equivalent (for daidzein) you would need

1316 mg of Soybeans, mature seeds, raw (United States)
2622 mg of Soy Protein Isolate
1300 mg of Soybeans, mature seeds, dry roasted (includes soy nuts)

Seems like you could munch on Dry Roasted Soy Beans and get there pretty easily

This just doesn't seem right ... seems like anyone that eats Soy Nuts would have Big Boobies

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

That's my point: I think a lot of Asian women are stalled on soy. I also used the USDA list, and I found the doses for tempeh and tofu are 6 and 19 g. Many people in Asia get more than that.

It's a stall because it lowers LH, yes, so in principle, your supplementing testosterone should make you immune to it.

There is a Menohop with hops alone, and another one with hops and soy. Since the researchers who developed it, published on the dietary factors affecting metabolism to equol too, I assume it contains a probiotic to help digest daidzein to equol.