[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

For me, insomnia is the best way to tell when I need to increase fenugreek or decrease maca or hops. For you, bloated ankles will probably work better. You could even use the measuring tape, or during a day at the office, keep track of how your shoes feel.

Signs of too much progesterone are clear thinking and feeling easily irritated. In your line of work, you are probably used to being critical of the performance of your brain. Just make a scale from "foggy" to "clear", and keep a bottle of FG capsules in a drawer. Just don't overdo it. Before you know it, you'll be using them as a smart drug.

When you increase FG to the high end, you can up testim again, and then FG, and so on. I did spiral up a few times with FG and maca. But in case something goes wrong, you need to spiral down the same way.

There's no way the cream can offer that level of flexibility, so I'd stick to FG. Capsules of 500 or 600 mg would be most convenient, but if you take two or more, make sure you have a candy bar ready for the sugar dip. For your body weight, you may end up taking up to 4,000 mg FG over the day. But I'd go about it the way Susan uses them: check for symptoms every hour, and take one capsule as needed.

[karen]

Thanks Isabelle,

I'm gonna have to think this all out and figure out an approach.

I was doing some morning web searching ... I searched on "gynecomastia hormone levels" ... trying to get a handle on things .... seeing that "gynecomastia" was a "way of growing boobs"

I found this .... I had read this quite awhile ago ... but I read it again. It's really wild that when you know more and then re-read something, how much more you understand ... and you "pick up" on things that you missed before.

There's lots of "pieces of the puzzle here" ... even down to being specific about hormone levels ....

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.html

Karen

ADDED THIS MORNING ....

I'm having lots of concerns about the liquid extracts that I am using. The results, meaning the symptoms that I see, don't seem to be consistent with my doses. I have to use very high amount before I see things like water retention, headaches, foggy thinking, irritability ... etc Plus there are time when I increase a dosage and the symptoms go away. I'm thinking about changing my products.

Isabelle ... when you used SP what did you use? And what exactly do you use for Hops? Also if both were in raw form, how do you prepare them? Can you recommend any "prepared Hops or SP" (in case I'm too lazy)

Thanks ... Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

The SP I tried was in a formula, Prostavit. The composition of this formula was a lot simpler then than what it is now, at least as far as I can remember.

The hops is straight from the plant, just dried, and the strobiles have been separated into separate leaves as I buy it. I don't do anything to it, just throw it into a bowl with cereals, other herbs, honey and raisins, and milk. I've started to add coffee creamer lately because it tastes better.

In the US, you can probably find whole dried saw palmetto berries, or maybe even fresh ones. As a matter of principle, I always stay as close as possible to the plant source. We're eating far too many processed foods already.

Just today, I was in Amsterdam again. I was at http://www.jacob-hooy.nl/ to stock up on goat's rue, black seed, and hops:
Goat's rue: 300 g for € 9.75
Black seed: 300 g for € 10.50
Hops: 200 g for € 7.40
The black seed is five times more expensive than what I normally pay at http://www.amazingoriental.com/ but I've been warned that there are differences in quality, so trying a few sources in different price ranges is necessary.

At www.detuinen.nl, I bought a 50+ multi, 90 capsules for € 8,99. It was a special offer, 50 % off, but it's low in zinc: only 0.7 mg. I want to get at least 12 mg, but it's not too difficult to get that from food:
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-He...fessional/

I have become more critical about what, when, and how too. My recent experiments with goat's rue show that the fun way to take it is in one big dose, but up to ten small doses during the day is probably way more effective, because swelling only becomes growth if it's near permanent, and one dose lasts less than two hours.

[karen]

Hi Isabelle,

Let me start with this one so I can make sure I have everything right ... and this being the mainstay for my regiment.

The hops is straight from the plant, just dried, and the strobiles have been separated into separate leaves as I buy it. I don't do anything to it, just throw it into a bowl with cereals, other herbs, honey and raisins, and milk. I've started to add coffee creamer lately because it tastes better.

So you get the Hops strobiles already dried and when you say 3,200 mg of Hops each day, you just weigh out 3,200 mg of the Dried strobiles and add it to your food?

Karen

[Isabelle]

Yes Karen,

That's the way I do it, although I don't actually weigh it out each time. I just take three tablespoons, and back-calculate the average dose when a 200 g bag of hops is finished.

[karen]

Yes Karen,

That's the way I do it, although I don't actually weigh it out each time. I just take three tablespoons, and back-calculate the average dose when a 200 g bag of hops is finished.

Then comes the "interesting" part ... when they explain the "extract" it is considered a 1:1 extract ... which means they use "1 gram (1,000 mg) of dried hops" to 1 mL of extracting solution ... so "in theory" your 3,200 mg of Dried Hops would equate to 3.2 mL of my extract ... but here's the problem ... we have no real way to compare the potency of your mix to the potency of my extract .... obviously you get it ALL, but how much actually makes it into the "extract" ..... got any ideas or experience with that?

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

What you need will be in the extract. But I think they mean fresh herb, where I use dried herb. What you want to know is how much weight my dried hops lost during drying. That's more than I thought, 5/6:
http://www.nonconfermist.com/2009/08/how...-home.html

[Isabelle]

I was really surprised by the high weight loss of hops upon drying, so I double checked it, and it's true:
http://sroc.cfans.umn.edu/People/Faculty.../index.htm

Well, for me, that's a big surprise, after almost a year on this forum

It doesn't make a difference in the comparison with other programs that use dried hops, like Eve M's, or my old formula. But it does make a difference for Karen's extract - she might as well drink the whole bottle - and for prof. Denis de Keukeleire's work. I wrote about his dose here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41147#pid41147
I compared it with hops pellets, and I don't know what the water content of those is. But if they contain as much water as the fresh hops, the dose in de Keukeleire's cosupplementation study is only 60 mg dried hops, or 50 times lower than mine. Even if the pellets are dry, it's still 5 times lower.

I wrote previously that they may have overdosed the soy 20 times. But now it turns out that their soy dose could have been about right, and their hops dose way low. The upside is that I can take more soy without stalling, and that the dose in my first flax experiment, 30 g, was not a stalling dose either.

Never too old to learn. I mean, really learn. I should never have used a guess number for the evaporation weight loss without checking

[karen]

Hi Karen,

What you need will be in the extract. But I think they mean fresh herb, where I use dried herb. What you want to know is how much weight my dried hops lost during drying. That's more than I thought, 5/6:
http://www.nonconfermist.com/2009/08/how...-home.html

Actually the ratio can be based on either Fresh or Dried ... but the result is how much potency the extract ends up having. If it is based on Dried Herbs then the potency is described as "1,000 mg of Hops per mL of Extract" .... if it is based on Fresh Herbs then the potency is described as "250 mg of Hops per mL of Extract" .... thats what I have found so far anyways.

Karen .... now on to your next post (which I didn't read yet in case there's something in it that repeats this)

[karen]

I was really surprised by the high weight loss of hops upon drying, so I double checked it, and it's true:
http://sroc.cfans.umn.edu/People/Faculty.../index.htm

Well, for me, that's a big surprise, after almost a year on this forum

It doesn't make a difference in the comparison with other programs that use dried hops, like Eve M's, or my old formula. But it does make a difference for Karen's extract - she might as well drink the whole bottle - and for prof. Denis de Keukeleire's work. I wrote about his dose here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=41147#pid41147
I compared it with hops pellets, and I don't know what the water content of those is. But if they contain as much water as the fresh hops, the dose in de Keukeleire's cosupplementation study is only 60 mg dried hops, or 50 times lower than mine. Even if the pellets are dry, it's still 5 times lower.

I wrote previously that they may have overdosed the soy 20 times. But now it turns out that their soy dose could have been about right, and their hops dose way low. The upside is that I can take more soy without stalling, and that the dose in my first flax experiment, 30 g, was not a stalling dose either.

Never too old to learn. I mean, really learn. I should never have used a guess number for the evaporation weight loss without checking

Isabelle,

The approx 4:1 weight ratio of fresh vs dried is almost the same difference as the "listed" potency of an Extract made from fresh herbs vs dried herbs ... and since when they say an extract is 1:1 it means the weights of the Herb in mg vs the volume of the extract in mL it really fits right into their potency comparison which is 1000 vs 250 (4 times) The key here is whether an extract is made from Fresh Herbs or Dried Herbs ... from what I have read so far it is preferred to make an extract from Dried Herbs ...

Getting back to my original question ... lets says they use dried herbs ....

in case one they let the dried herbs sit in the extract for an hour .... in case two they let the dried herbs sit in the extract for 2 months .... the published ratios of 1:1 will still be the same BUT it would seem that the potency would be vastly different.

What I am also seeing is that anyone using extracts should look for what is called a "standardized extract" ... that is one that is "always measured and compared" to ensure consistency ... BTW ... I haven't found any "standardized Hops extract yet"

Bottom line I don't think it's as bad as you thought (about hops anyway) AS LONG as the extract is made from Dried Hops AND used the 1:1 ratio .... BUT I still wonder about "how strong" the extract actually is .... I tend to NOT BELIEVE product labels ... ESPECIALLY in a market that is as UNCONTROLLED and MONITORED as Herbs ... your idea of "getting your herbs as clsoe to the product as you can" FOR CERTAIN HAS MERIT .... then arises the question "HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT" and "HOW MUCH WORK ARE YOU WILLING TO DO FOR IT" ..... probably why most people say "screw it" and go with PM .... BUT there sure isn't much info about exactly what's in that stuff or studies about it's long term effect ....

Karen