[Isabelle]

That's right, karen and Pansy Mae,

I scooped up a few posts that may be helpful:

Anything that increases progesterone or contains phyto-progestins should help with estrogen dominance symptoms. Ginie used progesterone cream.

nullmoon used fennel:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9517&pid=45380#pid45380

winter-dreams wrote she just googled to find out about fenugreek:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11038&pid=43839#pid43839

I made a rough estimate of the stalling dose of PM: it's below 4,000 mg.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9957&pid=36201#pid36201

[Lenneth]

That's right, karen and Pansy Mae,

I scooped up a few posts that may be helpful:

Anything that increases progesterone or contains phyto-progestins should help with estrogen dominance symptoms. Ginie used progesterone cream.

nullmoon used fennel:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9517&pid=45380#pid45380

winter-dreams wrote she just googled to find out about fenugreek:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11038&pid=43839#pid43839

I made a rough estimate of the stalling dose of PM: it's below 4,000 mg.
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=9957&pid=36201#pid36201

Ok, my Curiosity has taken over and I feel he need to ask.

If someone has stalled, what should they do to get un-stalled...?

[Isabelle]

Hi Lenneth,

When I joined the forum in June, I hadn't grown in over three years. So I did what traditional wisdom on the forum calls a "break": stopped everything, took milk thistle for a month (3 * 250 mg), and started over.

I ramped up on hops first, instead of opting for the safer fenugreek. I had trouble ramping up, and still lost an inch in the first two weeks. After that, my growth picked up.

The idea of a break is getting all phyto-estrogens off the receptors and starting afresh. Milk thistle is an herb that's also used for liver function, and it improves insulin sensitivity. So there's a lot of confusion between this type of program break and the pre-packaged "cleanses" or "liver cleanses" that are sold by natural remedies stores. Estrogen receptors that are important for NBE are in breasts, not in the liver. But if they set free a lot of phyto-estrogens in a month, I can imagine that causes an extra load on the liver, which is the organ that metabolizes steroids. So maybe a break and a cleanse are related.

Later, I found out milk thistle contains phyto-estrogens too. So the phyto-estrogens on the receptors in the breasts may just be replaced by different ones. That means my break was not very different from what Pansy Mae did, replacing PM with my hops program for a month. That helped for a while, but Pansy Mae did not start a prolonged, steady growth cycle like I did.

Some people on the forum are convinced a week is plenty for a break. It's not completely clear how long you can to take a stalling dose before you actually stall either. The stall is over when Luiteinizing Hormone (LH) comes up to a normal level again. So that means blood work or saliva testing, or maybe a DIY ovulation testing kit can be used for that too. Without testing, it's a leap of faith: I just took my herbs diligently for four months and saw growth.

[karen]

My idea of stalling and restarting is a little different.

IMHO Stalling is when you have gotten to the point that your LH starts to drop off and because of that your body stops producing it's own hormones.

If you get back down below that point you LH kicks back in and you start producing your own hormones again ... but here's the kicker ... the longer that you LH is way low the longer it takes for your body to recover and start producing you own hormones again.

I've done some reading about poeple on HRT ... specifically TRT and it is common to the point point of being "traditiional" that anyone that stops HRT (TRT) after being on it for a year or more that it takes months for their body to get back on it's own ... for their LH to get back to normal levels as well as their primary hormones (testoterone or estrogen) And that Withdrawal is something that you go through UNLESS you slowly reduce your HRT and let your LH recover as you lower your hormone therapy.

Some of it is due to receptors clearing at first but most it is due to how long it takes for LH to bounce back.

I haven't seen any studies that have been controlled enough to prove either case ... that's just what I pieced together the couple of times that I went cold turkey with my Testim, had blood tests and asked my Endochronologist "WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING TO ME" ... it was worse than I ever felt even when my T Levels were the lowest.

Karen

[Pansy-Mae]

Later, I found out milk thistle contains phyto-estrogens too. So the phyto-estrogens on the receptors in the breasts may just be replaced by different ones. That means my break was not very different from what Pansy Mae did, replacing PM with my hops program for a month. That helped for a while, but Pansy Mae did not start a prolonged, steady growth cycle like I did.

That's an interesting thought and one that hadn't occurred to me, but it does make some sense. This time last year I took a 4 week break from everything and two things happened:
(1) After about 10 days there was a noticeable decrease in boob volume as the fat moved away and that has never fully recovered, the volume loss at the top of my boobs appears to be permanent. Interestingly, I noticed a post from sfem a couple of days ago saying the same thing after her experimental break last October time. This means that I am somewhat paranoid about taking breaks!
(2) When I followed Isabelle's routine for about 4 or 5 weeks at the beginning of this year, there was no noticeable effect on my size one way or another, but the herbs ( probably Goats Rue in particular) did have unpleasant other effects on my body and I switched back to PM. There was no effect on size/growth, one way or the other but popping PM pills is is a lot quicker and easier than messing about with herbs and tea's However there must have been sufficient active ingredient in the herbs to prevent me starting to deflate.

Isabelle, any idea of the active ingredient comparison between Milk Thistle and PM? I'm thinking how much MT would I need to be equivalent in estrogenic terms to say 500 or 1000mg PM? Much as I doubt the need for liver cleansing per se, I've tried just about everything else and I'm willing to give ita go ut not at the risk of losing what I've got, so I would want to keep a maintenance dose of 'something'.

Finally, nobody has yet defined what a stall is and how you know you are suffering one, apart from the obvious lack of growth, which takes months to be sure has happened.

[Isabelle]

Thank you karen,

Sorry to read you learned it the hard way, but this is definitely a new view. It would suggest that weaning to a more sensible dose is a safer way to get out of a stall than breaking. Safer meaning that the risk of deflation would be less.

The idea that it takes months to restore Luteinizing Hormone after a year of Testosterone Replacement Therapy is a bit discouraging though. But it would explain some program threads by people who are desperate for growth, but never seem to get any after their beginner's luck failed them.

And Pansy Mae,

I don't know about the right dose for the estrogenic effect of milk thistle. I just took 3 times 250 mg daily because that's what it said on the bottle, and because of this post by Twister Mama:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=6509&pid=27818#pid27818

So you might be able to go higher if you are sure you are not allergic to ragweed. My skin felt static all over, so I didn't take any risks.

[sfita]

Hi Isabelle:
Iam just wondering is it ok to take PM just for the 1st 12 days of my cycle then start Eve's program on the 16th day as a kind of cycling for better results?
and do i need to lower the dose of hops? as the estrogen is lower in the luteal phase?how much?
thx

[Isabelle]

Hi sfita,

I think that will work, yes. It's actually a great idea. I don't know if you can lower hops much, though. Below 1,500 mg, it probably won't be doing anything. Increasing the fenugreek or the fennel will get you more motivation out of this program, because of the swelling.

Fennel seed tea is a convenient way to tune the estrogens/progesterone balance to your symptoms. In June, I did this experiment: I made a large pot of tea from 2,000 mg of powdered fennel seed. That's the size of a one cup teabag. I used an old coffee maker. I kept the tea in the fridge, and drank one cup the first day, two the second, and so on, up to eight cups.

It didn't take long to trigger progesterone symptoms: clear thinking, a feeling in my head like I had been drinking too much water, feeling easily irritated, insomnia (after the initial sedative effect). You can try it too, and then cut back to the point where those symptoms are still noticeable, but manageable. That should be around two cups. Towards the end of your cycle, just one more cup should stop PMS.

I am normally reluctant to advise fennel, because it's very easy to stall on the phyto-progestins in it. So adjusting the dose is important. In your program, it may be very efficient. Going as close as you can get to the stalling dose using PM in the follicular phase, and fenugreek and fennel in the luteal phase. It could work wonders for the shape of your breasts.

[karen]

It would suggest that weaning to a more sensible dose is a safer way to get out of a stall than breaking. Safer meaning that the risk of deflation would be less.

I hadn't thought about that but it sure does make sense. I think the hard part is knowing when you've gotten below that feedback point "enough" to allow LH to start coming back ... without some sort of "testing" ... blood, saliva, or what. Maybe you could cut back by maybe 1/3 or 1/2 ... that would sort of ensure you were low enough (as long as you didn't keep increasing everything to get past your stall and when you decided to cut back you were WAY over)

The idea that it takes months to restore Luteinizing Hormone after a year of Testosterone Replacement Therapy is a bit discouraging though.

It was something that I wasn't aware of at all until I stopped using Testim as a test ... around the 5th day or so after stopping the crash began. At that point without Testim and LH lower than .2 your body actually creates NADA. I "HAD" to start using it again .... and now understand that when if/when I stop it HAS to be a weaning.

I have to add something here too Isabelle. You're a sweetheart. There are times that people have sort of viewpoints that are different than yours ... I know there are a couple of times that I felt "uneasy" about a reply or two that I made. But you are ALWAYS so open and so gentle when you reply. And as much as you KNOW about this stuff you always listen AND consider something new .... and always "kind" when you reply. You are always willing to share "without preaching" .... THANK YOU ... people like you help make this place work.

Karen

[Isabelle]

Thank you karen,

You're so sweet, and so am I

There's also my 25 years as a lab rat. The point where I think I understand, where the preaching and the arrogance start, that's where I often have to remind myself to listen to people who are offering different views, and to focus on the experience reports that defy conventional wisdom. It's the only way to learn past the level of experts who only read one or two authors on a subject

I've been thinking about how to diagnose a stall. There's still Wahaika's stall test. And lowering the anti-androgen may be the fastest way. Oily skin and libido should return within hours or days.