[bryony]

I don't think I'll try butea superba before it becomes available from import channels that are regularly checked for heavy metals and bacteria.

Uh-oh... I wish you hadn't said that! Since it comes from Ainterol, I guess you have the same concerns for the PM also? (Hypochondria rears its head!)

How do you know what channels check for heavy metals and bacteria? I must say that the packaging is very impressive, but I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean much.

Thank goodness PM relieves my anxiety. I might have to up the dose to cope with taking it!

Carbs are 150 g, but double that for the week-end.

As I feared - that's quite a bit if you have a low carb lifestyle, and you want to include some fruit and veg with your meals. I would find it quite difficult to lose weight with another 150g / day. They are the most ready form of energy, and it is only by restricting them that your body burns deposited fat - but you probably know all that! (Sorry, didn't mean to appear condescending!)

B.

[Isabelle]

Yes bryony,

I have the same concerns for PM. Ainterol is one of the brands I'm least worried about, because a lot of people on the forum use it, and there would be complaints if it was contaminated with bacteria. Heavy metals, I don't know: it would have to be really bad before someone loses hair or so.

The Certificates of Analysis on www.puerariathai.com look convincing, but they are for a batch manufactured in September 2007. I linked the requirements here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=47368#pid47368
Those are high level documents. The more practical guideline is here:
http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/docu...113210.pdf
Paragraph 3.1.1. states:
"It is possible that, in addition to release tests, a specification may list in-process tests, periodic (skip)
tests, and other tests, which are not always conducted on a batch-by-batch basis. In such cases the
applicant should specify which tests are routinely conducted batch-by-batch, and which tests are not,
with an indication and justification of the actual testing frequency. In this situation, the herbal
substance/preparation and/or herbal medicinal product should meet the acceptance criteria if tested."

In my own interpretation, this means that a manufacturer must justify why a test is done with a less than batch-by-batch frequency. The default is batch-by-batch testing then. Recent inquiries by the ladies on the PM forum have revealed that for instance Siriporn makes one batch every six to eight months. So if they can produce physico-chemical, biological and microbiological test reports less than eight months old, they're in the clear. Of course they state that PM, once dried well, can be kept for at least seven years or so. They will be required to prove that with supporting data.

The criterion for you as and end user is the shelf in a shop in the EU. Once you find PM there, you can assume the product passed both the registration procedure and quality control testing. Which is why no shop in the EU currently carries PM. Your next best bet is PM UK or Biovea: if a competent authority would buy PM from them, and ask for the paperwork afterwards, they can be closed down if they can't produce the Certificates of Analysis. Ainterol has a PO box, which wouldn't hurt too much if it were closed down. Finally, you can always ask puerariathai to mail you the CoAs of the batch they are currently selling. Maybe they have them.

About my diet: the 150 g carbs includes fruit and veggies, and both my program and my diet. During the week, I actually lose weight (1 lb/day) on 150g/150g/100g carb/protein/fat, which is at least 500 kcal too much on paper. But I'm working on the carbs, yes. The 150/150/100 is just what my current shopping lists says. The next thing I'm going to try is canned tuna in water.

[Isabelle]

I misunderstood the question about carbs in my program. So I added up the carbs in the herbs, excluding diet:

Oats is obviously the main source of carbs in my program: at a dose of 8.4 g and 60 % carbs, oats contributes 5 g carbs.

Dried maca root contains 60-75 % carbohydrates. At a dose of 3.4 g, it contributes 2-2.5 g carbs.

Soy meal contains 35 % carbohydrates. I assume flax, black seed, and fenugreek are similar. Those add up to a dose of 1+3.6+2.4+2.5=8.5 g, and contribute 3 g carbs.

Goat's rue, hops, and mint and licorice teas are just dried vegetables. The doses are 7.4+1.8+1=10.2 g. At 60 % carbohydrates, they contribute 6 g.

So the total for herbs in my program is 17 g carbs. That's still over 10 % of my daily carbs intake.

[bryony]

What a mine of information you are, Isabelle! As ever, thanks very much for taking the trouble. References and everything!

Well done on the carbs too! 17g looks much better!

B.

[karen]

I've been taking 1 -160 mg Gelcap of Nature's Way Standardized SP in the AM and another at night. I've been finding that it upsets my stomach. Much more so than larger dosages of Nature's Answer SP Extract 1:1 in Alcohol has.

So I'm gonna go back to the liquid extract.

Here's how the different labels compare:

Saw Palmetto Standard Dosages
• Nature’s Way Standardized Extract 160 mg 2X daily <--- Upsets my stomach
• Nature’s Way Saw Palmetto Berries 585 mg Capsule 3X Daily
• Nature’s Answer Berry Extract 1,000 – 2,000 mg 3X Daily <--- Going back to this

I'm going to start off with 1,000 mg of Nature’s Answer Berry Extract 3X Daily. This is not an NBE dosage ... just Testim and SP daily.

Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

I can't find how strong the extract is. SP extracts are normally 5:1. Is it?

Don't toss it. There's a workaround:
"Note that stomach upset caused by saw palmetto may be reduced by taking it with food."
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSI...dmtContent

[karen]

Hi Karen,

I can't find how strong the extract is. SP extracts are normally 5:1. Is it?

Don't toss it. There's a workaround:
"Note that stomach upset caused by saw palmetto may be reduced by taking it with food."
http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSI...dmtContent

The extract is 1:1 .... I know that eating with it may help BUT I'm kinda a Loosy Goosy kind of guy .... I want to be able to take it when I want to be able to take it .... I'm not gonna toss it ... I may experiment more with food BUT I'm learning about limitations of each at least. Cost really isn't a concern ... might as well spend the money I make working on something .... NBE and Big Kid Toys sounds pretty good to me

Karen

[Isabelle]

The hops I started on June 3rd are whole strobiles. The previous batches were all rubbed into separate leaves. Two tablespoons of the old batch was 1,800 mg. Four tablespoons of the new one is 2,000 mg.

Last night I took only two tablespoons, 1,000 mg. I was hoping my libido, activity level, mood, social life, and drive to start all kinds of big projects would jump start. Well, sex drive was a little less than normal and I feel kind of depressed. I would obviously have to try this a few times over, but it probably means experiments with a lower hops dose should be longer.

I listed the six effects of hops on the brain here:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=12032&pid=51040#pid51040
They are caused by at least four different chemicals in hops, and some are immediate, others take weeks or months.

I probably just miss the increase in dopamine right now. I'll go get the other two tablespoons now

[karen]

Hi Isabelle,

So if I have this right you cut your dosage in half ... and last night was the 1st night of the change.

Here's the 6 things that you listed that hops influence

1. It binds to melatonin receptors, setting the clock to night time.
2. It binds to serotonin receptors.
3. It binds to estrogen receptors.
4. It decreases DHT.
5. It increases dopamine.
6. It decreases LH in high doses.

I don't think binding is going to clear that quickly and LH always moves kinda behind changes. That leaves 4 ... DHT and 5 ... dopamine. I guess it could have been one of those two ...

I've never tried any "real deal" hops ... but I have tried lots of changes in the amount of hops that I've taken ... I have not seen a "predictable" overnight change in any symptom when changing hops dosages. There have been times that I "thought" I saw a pattern ... but it was quick to change over the next day or two to the point of not being a "valid and predictable" result.

For what it's worth there have been times when I "thought I was on to something" ... only to find out that I wasn't.

You idea of repeating the dosages and maintaining a level a little longer may help determine a cause/effect. I also found that "other changes" (like what I had to eat on any given day) seeming to play a role in what I was experiencing.

Oh Yeah ... and for me ... cause I don't have the years of expereince in this that you do ... I think that often times I "made myself think" I had it figured out.

Some of my thoughts here too ... you've been "doing some pretty heavy thinking" lately ... or so it seems. And you posted this "I was hoping my libido, activity level, mood, social life, and drive to start all kinds of big projects would jump start." It sure does make me think about that "rut" that you talked about is what you want to get out of. Maybe, just maybe, that you need to change somethings in your life too and not just your herbal program. There are lots of things around us every day that can influence how we feel besides herbs.

People on this board ... and believe me I respect them all and I'm not telling them that they should do anything differently than they want ... but there are cases where people have become dependant on "herbs and such" making them feel a certain way .... I'm not pointing to anyone ... it's all in general terms ... POINT BEING that there are lots more things in our lives that make us "feel" the way we do ... sometimes we "mask" those things never realizing what the true factors are.

Hugs to all ... karen

[Isabelle]

Thank you karen,

for helping me figure this out. It's about changes in life, yes. Five years ago, I had a huge network at work, and another one downtown. After my divorce, it all stopped. The conflict right now is that I miss being a socialite, but I have also learned to enjoy holing up. Don't know which way to go yet, but I was certainly wondering what changed five years ago.

There were other things going on. The first six months, my ex was still doing construction work in her new house. I had a full time job and three teenagers to keep me more than busy. But later on, when things got more quiet around here, I didn't start networking again. Of course the daily toll of a bad marriage had stopped. Very few people made an effort to keep me on board during these six months, too. Yet I never really understood why this made me a loner, both at work and in my private life.

The day before yesterday, it suddenly occurred to me that hops may have had an effect. I took up to 6,000 mg in those days. I thought it was an easy experiment to try, but of course it wasn't. I may even try the opposite after my next tape day.

Thank you for pointing out that I shouldn't grab the quick emotional reward of being able to blame it all on the hops. Maybe the hard truth that I should have learned five years ago is that one or two good friends beat a few thousand people who say hi. Maybe I have changed. Maybe I should change something now, yes. Thinking about it, without worrying too much.