[karen]

The Estrogen Receptor Relative Binding Affinities of 188 Natural and Xenochemicals: Structural Diversity of Ligands

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/54/1/138.full

Isabelle,

Make sure you look thru all of the pdf's at the bottom of the article.

This one looks like a find

Karen

[Sophia2012]

Thanks for recommending Cinnamon, Im more comfortable taking it than GBiloba

I have read you mention about pcos and the deal in a female cycle (maximum estrogens for two weeks, and then maximum progesterone for two weeks)

In my case, I stop taking Fenugreek and Red Clover 5 days before my period but I continue taking only Vitex (pcos) until my period comes. I've been reading around and its a different case for every woman, some stop taking FG and some don't.

My period comes every 28th of the month.

1.) Since I have pcos, I am estrogen dominant right?
2.) Should I take more phyto estrogens and phyto progestins during the 1st and 2nd weeks then lower my phyto estrogen doses on the 3rd and 4th week?

3.) PCOS - too much testosterone or estrogen or just too much estrogen and not enough progesterone, basically I need more progesterone..????

When your body has too much estrogen it converts it into testosterone and that is counter-productive to breast enhancement. So if you have excess estrogen it prevents your breast from getting bigger because there is too much. ???????

[Isabelle]

Thank you for the link, Karen,

Fortunately, uteri have Estrogen Receptor α, the same as in breasts.

and yes, I got the convertible out, but because of all the work that's going on here, I'm using it as a van now. Saturday, I wore UK size 12 skinny jeans and got a tyre repaired for free and a new sill under the balcony doors, free of charge too. I'll get some more practice scoring free repairs, and then try a higher league

When you get the hops strobiles, manipulate them as little as possible. If they're whole, throw them in oat meal as they are, sweeten with honey and raisins, pour milk on it, and eat it like a porridge, microwaved if you prefer.

When a container or a bag is empty, there is orange dust at the bottom. That's lupulin, the stuff you want. If you powder the hops, you'll shake it all out of the strobiles, and who knows where it will end up. Probably in the dishwasher with the glass of the kitchen blender.

Off the top of my head, binding affinity of 8-PN is 20 times lower than that of estradiol. That's in the range where you want it, by the way, because you don't want your body's own estrogens replaced on the receptors by 8-PN. Looking at the numbers in the article you found, estrone will already be knocked out.

[Isabelle]

Hi Brilaw,

I got the shoots mainly in the beginning too. They were behind my areolas. Right now, I feel an itch under my left armpit. If you feel something, something happens. I never knew what feeling leads to what result, though.

Mel suggested 1 teaspoon of cinnamon in a tea:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=1021&pid=1945#pid1945

It's been a year since I looked into aguaje. This is what we found back then:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=32679#pid32679

[Isabelle]

Hi ssag124,

I take three waist slimmers: fenugreek, goat's rue, and black seed. From my own measurements, fenugreek appears to be the most effective, and it's a weight gainer too. The weight has to go somewhere. What changed lately is that I upped ω−3 fatty acids, with cans of salmon, ω−3 enriched mayonnaise, etc. The SP in your program may help putting some of the weight on your thighs too.

My porridge is mostly wheat based, and my oats is in it too. Corn was in the hops formula I first grew on, so it certainly won't hurt.

Acidophilus and bifidobacterium certainly help with soy digestion, and some of the bacteria digesting soy and hops are common, so by all means, try it. Journal your mood and libido: you should feel the estrogens if it works.

[karen]

I'll get some more practice scoring free repairs, and then try a higher league

You get em girl ....

When you get the hops strobiles, manipulate them as little as possible. If they're whole, throw them in oat meal as they are, sweeten with honey and raisins, pour milk on it, and eat it like a porridge, microwaved if you prefer.

I have a real sensitive "grain scale" (1 grain = 64.79891 milligrams) I think I'm going to use it to start with so I can have real tight control over how much I take ... what do you suggest that I start with? Keep in mind I would use approx 1 1/2 times what you do based on body weight.

Off the top of my head, binding affinity of 8-PN is 20 times lower than that of estradiol. That's in the range where you want it, by the way, because you don't want your body's own estrogens replaced on the receptors by 8-PN. Looking at the numbers in the article you found, estrone will already be knocked out.

Do you have a fairly good grasp of how binding works? Things like once a receptor is bound how long does it stay bound? Can something with a stronger affinity come along and "bounce" the weaker off of the receptors OR does it have to wait until the weaker one "exhausts itself" and then replace it? I'd love to read some articles if you have any. I'm really getting fascinated learning about the whole endrocine system.

I also started reading about half-life of chemical compounds in the body. And they are all different. For example I found that Saw Palmetto has a 1/2 life of 19 hours .... so even after a 24 hour period there is a residual left that a new dose would "add" on top of ... forcing your SP level "overtime" through the roof. Wonder if that could happen to other components of NBE ... so that if there is any residual left in the system when the next dose is taken it would continually add to the amount in your system ... end result, overtime you would "stall" without ever increasing the amount you take every day.

Hugs to you ... Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Sophia,

On days 25-28, what women take depends on their symptoms. Both estrogens and progesterone drop fast on day 25, and which one drops faster may vary from cycle to cycle. If you feel estrogen dominance (headaches or lower back pain, foggy thinking, low libido, depressed mood, bloated ankles) take a low dose of fenugreek, or, if you don't want prolactin, vitex agnus castus. If you have bad pre-menstrual syndrome, and feel easily irritated, take a low dose of a phyto-estrogen.

1) Many women with PCOS have estrogen dominance or androgen excess symptoms (oily skin or acne, shedding scalp hair, growing facial or body hair, upbeat mood, or even dominance, or aggression on provocation). But not every women who has PCOS has both estrogen dominance and androgen excess symptoms. Use the symptoms to determine if you do. Or google dr. Lee's hormone balance test.

2) Lowering phyto-estrogen doses on the 3rd and 4th week is a good idea. Phyto-progestin doses are lowest (zero for those without PCOS) on days 25-11. Phyto-estrogen doses are highest on days 9-11.

3) PCOS - fill out dr. Lee's test and see if you have estrogen dominance or progesterone deficiency or both. Then try if more progesterone helps. Some women use fenugreek or wild yam, some use a phyto-estrogen like fennel or turmeric or damiana, some use progesterone cream. You can also try vitex agnus castus, of course.

Your body lowers its own steroids production if the total of all sex hormones is too high. You grow best when estrogens are high and all the others are low, except if you have estrogen dominance. Then it helps to lower estrogens or to add something progestogenic. Which of the two will work best, follows from dr. Lee's test: if you have both estrogen dominance and excess estrogens, lower estrogens. If you have estrogen dominance and progesterone deficiency, or if you have only estrogen dominance, add progestogens.

Estradiol is made from testosterone. The reverse does not normally happen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg

[karen]

I just found a few articles that (I think) are telling me that multiple ligands can bind to a receptor and that the one with the strongest affinity is the one that causes the protein reaction .... or at least (between all of the words that I'm not quite sure of) that's what it looks like. So that would tell me that I don't have to worry about "getting and keeping the right hormones" bound to the receptors first .... but that as the hormones in my system change the stronger ones will bind (along with the weaker) and cause the reaction.

So lets say that I'm not blocking any DHT creation, my Estradiol is in a normally low range (being a male) And I'm taking lots of phtyoestrogens ... both my limited Estradiol and the phtyoestrogens binds with my estrogen receptors ... but since the number bound with Estradiol is small and phtytoestrogens aren't that strong the reaction is little (meaning NO BOOBIES) OR slow to come by BOOBIES.

But then I start to block DHT ... leaving more Free T to make Estradiol. Now I have phytoestrogens and MORE Estradiol bound to my receptors ... the Estradiol, having the greater affinity cause MORE OF A PROTEIN REACTION .... YEAH FASTER BOOBIES

So it would seem to me that the primary GOAL for any NBE program (for men anyway) would be to get DHT lower (where they want it) so that there is always more Estradiol binding to receptors. And anything that you can do to increase Estradiol is good.

Does this sound like anything reasonable?

My head hurts ..... Karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

You can start at 3,000 mg hops, but take a couple of days to ramp up.

A phyto-estrogen with a stronger binding affinity has to wait until a weaker one leaves. But chemical equilibrium is dynamic: every second, a lot of estrogens leave the receptors, to be replaced by others with equal, higher, or even lower binding affinity. Look at the publication you linked: the IC50 is the concentration of the tested estrogen that causes 50 % inhibition of the competitive binding of estradiol. The lower the concentration, the lower the dose you can take for the same effect, so the stronger the tested estrogen.

A daily dose is a good average for most of the steroids. You ramp up over two or three days until you reach the right concentration. Exceptions are estriol, estrone, and goat's rue: they metabolize fast. Some changes are much slower because they involve more than metabolism: like stalling, which requires the active intervention of a gland. For synthetics, like testim, the pharmacokinetics is in the documentation.

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

When you look at it from a distance, that's more or less correct. However, if you look at the mechanics of it, I don't believe weak phyto-estrogens are all that bad.

A low binding affinity just means a phyto-estrogen comes off the receptor more easily. So let's pick my number of 20. If the binding affinity of 8-PN is 20 times lower than that of estradiol, it just means 8-PN leaves the receptor 20 times easier than estradiol.

This has consequences:
1) a 20 times lower dose of estradiol will have the same effect as a given dose of 8-PN
2) at equal doses, of all the occupied receptors, 95 % have estradiol on them, and 5 % have 8-PN on them.

This means that 95 % of the work will be done by the receptors that have estradiol on them. What the 5 % receptors with 8-PN on them do, doesn't really matter in the first place. So your conclusion that the best NBE strategy is upping estradiol by cutting down DHT (and not taking too much progestogens), is correct.

Actually, the 8-PN on the receptors sets in motion the same chain of events in the cell as the estradiol does. Those events will eventually lead to cell growth and/or division. Steroids that bind to the estrogen receptor without setting that chain of events in motion, are not estrogens. They are anti-estrogens.

I really believe that the story you read many times on the forum, that if you have only so many receptors, you would prefer to have them occupied by strong phyto-estrogens, is just echoing sales talk from vendors of strong phyto-estrogens. If you take two phyto-estrogens together, the one with the lower binding affinity will just occupy a smaller portion of the receptors, at equal dose. So if you take ten times more of a phyto-estrogen with a ten times lower binding affinity, both phyto-estrogens will contribute equally to your growth.

In scientific literature, a "weak" phyto-estrogen is not necessarily a phyto-estrogen with a low binding affinity. The term is also used for phyto-estrogens that are selective for the estrogen receptor β (ERβ). ERβ is the receptor found in skin cells, while ERα is in breast cells. Genistein and daidzein from soy are selective for ERβ. So soy gives you smooth skin. Daidzein is digested to equol, which is selective for ERα. So people who have the right bacteria in their intestines, may also grow breasts on soy.

The bacteria that digest daidzein to equol are partly the same bacteria that digest isoxanthohumol from hops to 8-PN. So if you keep them busy with lots of soy, they will produce less 8-PN. That's why cosupplementation of hops and soy is slightly less effective than using either hops or soy alone. You need to adjust the doses upward by say 30 % to compensate for that effect.

The above is my understanding of the literature. I don't want to pretend to know it all, though. I have quite a few questions too:
- Why doesn't anyone seem to grow on SP alone?
- Soy users generally have excellent skin, but why do many have no breasts?
- Why is there no literature on women who have no boobs because they have been consuming a dietary or environmental anti-estrogen for too long?
- Why do some transition regimes insist on adding a progestin?
- Why don't gym rats take anti-estrogens instead of aromatase inhibitors?
- Why do we lose size when we stop phyto-estrogens, if gynecomastia are so hard to get rid of?