[mochaccino]

The program I just described is definitely not written in stone. I'm desperate for ideas and suggestions. What do you guys think? What would you do if you were attempting to copy Chiyomilk's or Ginie's program? I do still do not feel that I fully understand all this and I'm groping around in the dark. I really do not want to waste more money, time, and emotional investment.

There is some good news. Some how or another I've already lost 5 pounds. I had allowed my weight to creep up to 126 and it's now 121. 2 of those pounds were lost during the 3 weeks before I started my current super low cal diet. I was just eating healthy and I hadn't lowered my calories that much yet. I don't see how it's possible that I lost the other 3 pounds in 4 days, so most of it must be water weight, but I'm still feeling good about it. I've already lost a teeny amount of fullness in my breasts, but I was expecting that. Over all I don't regret it, and I'm definitely going to continue. I plan to get down to a pretty low weight to strip off the huge amount of excess body fat I put on recently. Once I do that, I plan to intentionally gain weight until I get all the way back up to 115 or 118 depending on how I look. I plan to work out hard during that time, with minimal cardio, so I gain more muscle than fat. I will gain some of the fat back, and that's a good thing, but hopefully all those phytoestrogens I might be taking will cause the fat to distribute very differently than it did the first time around. I should probably wait until the weight gain phase to start taking internals again, but I don't fully trust myself to lose all the weight that I planned to, and I don't want to put off BE indefinitely while my weight bobs up and down.

[Isabelle]

Hi mochaccino,

Trannies in Antwerp have been using a hops-placenta cream since 1973. It's the last link in this post:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=34832#pid34832

Its reputation was that it could get a man up to a B cup, but no further. The shop extended the program with fenugreek pills later. Since I grew well on hops and fenugreek alone, the cream has been on my list of things to try for quite a while, but I never got around to it.

About your program: Chiyomilk and Ginie kept at it for years. The two fastest growers on this forum - an inch a month for four months running - used only Ainterol capsules, 10 g L-arginine, and a multi.

[mochaccino]

I need to figure out what MydreamisGcup and IdreamofD did differently from those who only took PM and did not see growth. I need to make sure that they're not just outliers. I really want to hear a plausible explanation for why l-arginine would be the deciding factor in a PM program but not necessarily in other herbal programs, because lots of people have used l-arginine and herbs with varying levels of success. Then again, very few people have used a megadose of l-arginine. I know you tried a megadose and you felt that it didn't work for you. Do you have any idea why not? You were also on a strong phytoestrogen like them, but obviously in your case it was hops.

Has either of them taken a break for at least 3 weeks? Were they on BC? What kind? I'm gonna look into these things myself for a bit and get back to you.

[Isabelle]

Hi mochaccino,

MydreamisGcup was on the Depo Provera shot and idreamofD on the Nuvaring. They could both take PM continuously because they didn't have cycles. I don't remember any breaks.

I grew an inch a month on hops without L-arginine for three and a half months running, at the end of last year. So I already knew I could grow fast. In the first half of April, I ramped up L-arginine by 500 mg a day to 10 g. I gained two inches in those two weeks, mainly because of 5 lbs weight loss, a slimming waist, and an underbust size that followed it. I kept up the 10 g until the end of May, but started getting carbs cravings, gained weight, and added only another 3/4 ". In the first half of June, I stopped L-arginine cold turkey, and lost 3/4 " as weight returned to normal.

When I draw a trendline of my average growth over the past year, I've been on that trendline again since mid June, as if I never used L-arginine at all. I blame my giving in to the carbs cravings. I remember MydreamisGcup writing she used a lot of sugar too. I don't remember either MydreamisGcup or idreamofD writing about what happened after they stopped L-arginine.

Anastasia is experimenting with PM and L-arginine right now. Things on my list to try are:
- another two week ramp up, followed immediately by a cold turkey stop.
- 10 g in one day and then a week nothing.

[mochaccino]

I looked at MydreamisGcup's program page and there's really nothing there. She doesn't say whether she kept the growth and I don't even know if she continued. There just isn't enough to go on. Do you know more about what happened to her?

IdreamofD appears to still be taking PM even now and more importantly, from my point of view, she was taking BC the whole time. What I'm saying is that her case is interesting, but it's not slam dunk proof of the method just yet.

Combining a very strong phytoestrogen with BC can sometimes cause consistent, unusually steady increases in swelling that are easy to mistake for growth. I'm not sure if the kind of BC matters, and it doesn't seem to happen to everyone. The amount of swelling can be really massive and long lasting. A certain person, who I won't mention for the sake of her privacy, gained a huge amount on PM and BC only to lose everything once she stopped completely. She had a consistent relatively steady increase in swelling, so it was easy to believe that it was real growth. I can PM you her name if your interested and you haven't already figured it out. Her program is extremely relevant to what we're talking about.

[Isabelle]

MydreamisGcup stopped maintaining her program page before the really interesting growth spurt started. She continued to update from her phone all over the forums, so search for all of her posts, and read them chronologically.

PM suppresses prolactin. Many women report swelling in the first month after stopping PM. It might be worthwile inquiring by PM to get another opinion on that. Of course, the swelling after stopping PM is probably temporary too. It wouldn't be swelling if it were permanent.

[mochaccino]

Thanks for the info Isabelle I'm not really sure what you meant about getting a second opinion. The person in question definitely lost all their growth permanently, but I'm not sure if you were talking about her. The rebound swelling from PM is interesting, but I don't really understand how its relevant. I want to make sure I understand what your telling me. For that matter, I would really like to know more about the effect of PM on prolactin and what it might mean for most PM programs. This is all so confusing.

[mochaccino]

In other news, I got my Cica Care gel sheets today. They seem way to small to use in the way that was described by that girl. They're only 5"x6". She said she cut holes in the center of each sheet and stuck her boobs through. They're basically meant to be flat padded cup rings. She must have had an extremely tiny rib cage. I'm thinking of cutting the holes and stretching it to fit, but I'm afraid I'll just cause the silicone to crumble and then they'll be ruined. I might have to cut them into smaller pieces and use those, but any gaps in the ring will probably break the seal. Is there anyone here who is much better at geometry than I am, and willing to help me figure out how to make these sheets work? I'm stumped.

[mochaccino]

Motherlove goats rue seems way to expensive. Loose goats rue is cheap, but I don't want to have to make and drink gross teas any more if I can avoid it, so I want a supplement that comes in pill form. There's surprisingly few studies actually showing that most lactation herbs work by increasing prolactin. I want something that I can be reasonably sure will do what I intend it do, and not throw a curve ball at me. I was researching the most common lactation herbs and came across this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19303749

Sylimarin sounds promising but this is far from an ideal study, especially because it's in rats. I'm gonna keep looking and see what else I can find before I make a decision.

[mochaccino]

Due to the lack of evidence, I've decided that Motherlove is probably still the best choice. I've gotten swelling from goats rue, so at least I've had a positive experience with it. But is raising prolactin really a good idea? Should I take it during the first or second half of my cycle? How does PM suppress prolactin? I want to make sure I've thought this through before buying it.