[karen]

Morning Isabelle,

1st, Status of yesterdays experiment ... 4,500 mg of Chopped Dried Hops with Yogurt .... made me sleepy, still horny as hell, still stood at attention all night. AND BTW I had 6,000 mg of Hops Extract with water yesterday morning too.

OK ... I grabbed this excerpt from the post that you linked to

"Hops is converted into xanthohumol and 8-pn when it's digested. Xanthohumol is a testosterone blocker (not a DHT blocker like most other antiandrogens). 8-pn is a very strong phytoestrogen. In order for hops to be digested into 8-pn it has to be taken with food, but people vary a LOT in their ability to "produce" 8-pn."

My understanding is that Hops "contains" xanthohumol, isoxanthohumol, and a small amount of 8-pn. Digestion with the proper enzymes will convert xanthohumol, isoxanthohumol (still not clear how much is converted and how much remains) into the much stronger 8-pn. That said ... the part ("....is a testosterone blocker (not a DHT blocker like most other antiandrogens)" ... could very well be an explanation of what's going on .... since I am using Testim my Testosterone isn't going to get blocked. I'm going to have to look into this more .... I have missed this completely up till now.

If this is the case ..... then by using Testim, and nothing but Hops, my DHT isn't effected at all .... so when I increase Testim my "natural levels" of DHT and Estradiol will increase too. It does seem like Hops causes some "Elevated Estrogen Level Symptoms" in me, BUT DHT is still running it's merry course.

This is probably the most logical explanation of what's going on ... but like I said I have to do some research about the idea that Hops Blocks Testosterone and Not DHT.

If I were to lower my Testim dose it would lower my DHT but it would also lower how much of my own Estradiol is created. If Hops lowers T AND I don't have the proper enzymes to get a bunch of 8-pn then Hops is really not doing very much of anything ... and whatever "growth" I have been perceiving in the past has more than likely been swelling tied into FG and Licorice Tea.

I have ideas of things I could try ... BUT 1st I need to look into this Hops thing more.

What's are you thoughts based on what you have felt/seen when using Hops? You've got allot more "lab rat" experiences at this then I do .... Does that mean the Maca would counteract Hops? What about other things that you've tried?

Thanks for thinking about my dilemma too.

BTW ... I was looking over some past stuff and found this "Androgens:
oats stimulate androgen activity! It is an anti-estrogen" Sounds like my having Hops in Oatmeal isn't a real good idea either ....

karen

[Isabelle]

Yes, Karen,

What caught my eye is this statement:

"Xanthohumol is a testosterone blocker (not a DHT blocker like most other antiandrogens)." I don't know what a "blocker" means here.

This is new to me too. I couldn't find a publication supporting this, but this one comes close. The abstract states that isoxanthohumol inhibits steroidogenesis in Leydig cells, which suggests that it inhibits synthesis of testosterone.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jat.1602/abstract;jsessionid=9275274585DAE180F505DEA6DDBC9AF0.d01t01?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Hops extract lowers testosterone in ovariectomized obese rats:
http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOT...402016.htm
Only this publication doesn't say how testosterone is decreased. It could be a stall.

There is an article stating that the conversion of isoxanthohumol to 8-prenylnaringenin is 90 %:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0509714

Hops definitely decreases my libido. I'm not alone: "Humulus lupulus extract exerted an anaphrodisiac effect only in naïve rats (not in sexually potent rats) by inhibiting their mounting and ejaculating behavior. The pure compound 8-PN failed to influence male sexual behavior of naïve rats."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...410900395X

Xanthohumol is definitely an anti-androgen. There is also a lot of literature saying it cures acne. So I always assumed it inhibits 5α-reductase type 1, because that's the type that's in skin. I just looked for literature confirming that xanthohumol inhibits 5α-reductase type 1, but couldn't find any.

Oats stimulate androgen activity only because they lower SHBG. So I use my oats together with the hops on purpose, because SHBG binds estrogens too. DHT binds stronger to SHBG than other steroids do. So in your program, the combination of testim with lower SHBG could cause explosive libido, yes.

[karen]

Yes, Karen,

What caught my eye is this statement:

"Xanthohumol is a testosterone blocker (not a DHT blocker like most other antiandrogens)." I don't know what a "blocker" means here.

This is new to me too. I couldn't find a publication supporting this, but this one comes close. The abstract states that isoxanthohumol inhibits steroidogenesis in Leydig cells, which suggests that it inhibits synthesis of testosterone.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jat.1602/abstract;jsessionid=9275274585DAE180F505DEA6DDBC9AF0.d01t01?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Hops extract lowers testosterone in ovariectomized obese rats:
http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOT...402016.htm
Only this publication doesn't say how testosterone is decreased. It could be a stall.

There is an article stating that the conversion of isoxanthohumol to 8-prenylnaringenin is 90 %:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0509714

Hops definitely decreases my libido. I'm not alone: "Humulus lupulus extract exerted an anaphrodisiac effect only in naïve rats (not in sexually potent rats) by inhibiting their mounting and ejaculating behavior. The pure compound 8-PN failed to influence male sexual behavior of naïve rats."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...410900395X

Xanthohumol is definitely an anti-androgen. There is also a lot of literature saying it cures acne. So I always assumed it inhibits 5α-reductase type 1, because that's the type that's in skin. I just looked for literature confirming that xanthohumol inhibits 5α-reductase type 1, but couldn't find any.

Oats stimulate androgen activity only because they lower SHBG. So I use my oats together with the hops on purpose, because SHBG binds estrogens too. DHT binds stronger to SHBG than other steroids do. So in your program, the combination of testim with lower SHBG could cause explosive libido, yes.

Based on what I have read I'm not buying in on Hops actually lowering Total Testosterone. I can "ALWAYS" find a paper thats back a belief ... but when it's 20 to 1 I throw the one away .... if I can find a "general consensus that Hops actually lowers Total T levels" then I'm in ..... until then as they say on Shark Tank ... I'm out.

Moving on to the SHBG stuff .... the quote was from something that you sent me .... it read "oats stimulate androgen activity! It is an anti-estrogen" ... now I'm really confused

karen

PS I deleted some of my Frustration Driven remarks .... sorry

[ssag124]

hey isabelle,

quick question...can too much DHEA in one's system cause a negative feedback thus downregulation of testosterone and estrogen. I know that maca may have dhea in it...but for what it's worth I was thinking about taking DHEA itself. Whaddya think?

[Isabelle]

Well Karen,

Nobody has more experience with the effect of hops on total testosterone than you have

SHBG binds strongest to DHT, then testosterone, then estrogens. Since you don't stall because of the testim, lowering SHBG will not lower your estrogens. But the reason I take only 7,900 mg oats is because I'm afraid it will lower mine.

And ssag124,

In theory, one can stall on DHEA, yes. But since most publications report no increase in sex hormones after taking maca, I very much doubt it will happen in practice.

Update: I ran out of whole hops strobiles yesterday, and out of fenugreek today. My average hops dose was 4,100 mg since June 2nd. Fenugreek was 2,200 mg on average since March 29th. I'm going to double fenugreek after the next tape day, which is tomorrow.

The hops is higher than the 3,500 mg I expected. So this time I took notes on how much hops I put in each container. And I measured: one small heaped tablespoon is 640 mg. I'm going to take six tablespoons, or 3,800 mg, from now on. Bulk density, slightly compacted by tapping the container on the table, is 0.037 kg/l.

[karen]

Nobody has more experience with the effect of hops on total testosterone than you have

I'm not so sure about that .....

SHBG binds strongest to DHT, then testosterone, then estrogens.

Your order (DHT, testesterone, then estrogens) is what confuses me. This is how I understand it .....

Your body produces Testosterone (this is focused on Bio Males) .... that number is what is called when tested "Total Testosterone". Normal male testosterone level range given is 250 -1100 ng/dl ... but a level below even 400 will usually have signs.

SHBG and Albumin binds with Total Testosterone .... what remains behind is Free Testosterone and Bio-available Testosterone.

Here's a caclulator if you know your numbers

http://www.issam.ch/freetesto.htm

Normal range for Free T is 35.0-155.0 pg/mL.

Next 5 alpha reductase ... which is not as strong as SHBG/Albumin ... gets its shot at Free Testosterone .... it makes DHT. (lowering DHT leaves more Free T to make Estradiol)

Then poor ole aromatase get to grab it's chunk from what's left of Free T to make Estradiol ... (blocking aromatase tends to not allow you to make more DHT since the 5a reductase has already had it's turn)

I'm sure that there are other things going on but that's my understanding of the pecking order.

karen

[Isabelle]

Yes, Karen,

Those are the relative binding strengths of different proteins and enzymes to a single hormone, testosterone. I listed the relative binding strengths of different hormones to a single protein: SHBG.

[karen]

Yes, Karen,

Those are the relative binding strengths of different proteins and enzymes to a single hormone, testosterone. I listed the relative binding strengths of different hormones to a single protein: SHBG.

Could you explain what that means ... I never got to that part .... how does that interact to the order that different proteins and enzymes to a single hormone, testosterone. This is for sure a piece of the puzzle that I'm missing and may help me to understand lots more. If you want to point me to some readings that's fine too.

Would that mean that SHBG would 1sr bind to the DHT in your body .... then what's left would bind with the Total Testosterone leaving behind Free T and Bioavail T ... and finally bind with the Estrogen in your body? How strong is the SHBG Binding to DHT and Estrogen .... by lowering SHBG do you then have more Free T .... plus more DHT and Estrogen is available to bind with receptors?

karen

[Isabelle]

Good morning Karen,

It's actually you who found this:
http://www.jbc.org/content/265/11/6048.full.pdf

The chemical equilibrium constants that I referred to in the above posts are called "association constants" in that article. Think of a chemical reaction that forms some sort of association between DHT and SHBG, like a strong chemical bond or a loose complex:

DHT + SHBG ---> complex

The association constant is the ratio of the concentrations (or "levels", in pg/l or ng/dl) of the resulting complex to those of the parts that make it up:

[complex]
--------------- = Ka
[DHT].[SHBG]

The higher Ka, the more difficult the complex will fall apart. If you replace DHT by testosterone in this equation, you get a lower Ka. If you replace it by estrogens, Ka will become even lower. So at any given SHBG concentration, the percentage of total DHT that is free is very small. The percentage of testosterone that is free is bigger, and the percentage of estrogens that are free is even bigger than that. The numbers are in the linked article.

If you replace SHBG in the above equation by albumin, 5α-reductase, or aromatase, you get another pecking order, of which binds strongest to DHT. If you matrix all the hormones against all receptors and other proteins and enzymes, you can probably find literature to fill the whole matrix with numbers for Ka. Some authors use the dissociation constants: Kd = 1 / Ka.

Chemical equilibrium is a matter of percentages of free and bound hormones. It's not about which binds first. The discipline that looks into rates of chemical reactions is called kinetics. That's when you get into half lives, rate constants, etc.

[karen]

It's actually you who found this:
http://www.jbc.org/content/265/11/6048.full.pdf

DUH ... I read this stuff and grasp what I can ... usually the 1st time through it's like drinking out of a fire hydrant for me ... most of it misses my mouth. I need to keep going back through everything ... as I understand a little more the hydrant is easier to drink from.

I'm going to read this one over and over until "I get it" ... I think that part of the big picture that I am missing is the "dynamics" of the whole system. I am picking up bits and pieces but not the big picture.

Thanks ....

I think some of the Hops despression is setting in ... I didn't do much of anything this weekend except sit around the house and watch TV .... BOOOOOO ... got to fix that. Got to go back and read some notes.

I didn't have any hops last night and I cut back my morning dose with water this morning a little. Still had some wild dreams last night ... had a couple where I got busted by strangers (sexy women by the way) while looking through cross-dressing catalogs.

BTW ... having a few moods swings lately too ... I apologize for "venting" my frustrations ... I wish I understood all of this more than I do ... I really don't like "not knowing" ... guess it's part of who I am.

karen