[Sophia2012]

Hi Isabelle, just to update you of my progress (Im the pcos lady)

I can feel and see that my program is working. Now my body has adjusted to the new herbs I've added ~ fish oil, epo

Its hard to find Red Clover in our city and Holland is always out of stock so I switched to Licorice Root for now

After almost 2 weeks, so far so good. My only issue is that my libido has never been the same I'm a single woman with no plans of being in a relationship for the time being. It's weird cos my thoughts are affected too, haha. So I have a guy friend who confessed his feelings to me a month ago and told him we can only be friends....now, because of all these weird libidos, he is in my crazy thoughts and

Im afraid that I will lose self control and just contact this friend of mine anytime hahaha...this is embarrassing but I know you would understand

Is this normal or am I put under a spell?

oh nbe!

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

The maca flour got me through the depression. And I've given up trying to control where my program takes me. It's a safe place, away from gender issues and depression, but all the other consequences are sort of resulting, at least until I understand more about it too. So our situations are not that different.

And yes, Sophia,

In a way, you're under a spell. What we're doing is not that different from what medieval women were burnt at the stake for. Libido runs out of control in NBE. I don't know anybody on the forum who can manage it. So if you've got an outburst, by all means use it. Life is too short and blah blah blah. Just don't try to explain to the guy why he got lucky.

Today is tape day. Weight is steady at 84.5 kg, but yesterday, it was still 82.5 kg. The week-ends with the kids are not the best moments for my diet. Body Mass Index (BMI) is still 26.5, which is overweight (25
My breast still measures 116 cm, or 46 ". Band size is as always, at 90 cm, or 35 ". I'm a US 40 E (or F), or in EU sizes, 90 G/H, just on the edge.

Waist to Hip Ratio (WHR) is the same at 0.82, but without rounding, it's actually down to 0.816, because my butt has increased from 102 to 103 cm, or 41 ". The weight gain is going where I like it

I doubled the fenugreek today. Back to where it was during my growth spurt in 2011.

Height: 178.5 cm = 5 * 30.48 + 10 * 2.54 = 5' 10"
Weight: 84.5 kg * 2.2046 lbs/kg = 186 lbs
Body Mass Index (BMI): 84.5/1.785/1.785 = 26.5
Breast: 116 cm = 46"
Under: 90 cm = 35" Difference Breast - Under = 116 - 90 = 26 cm = 10 ", US bra size 40 E (or F), EU 90 G/H
Waist: 84 cm = 33"
Butt: 103 cm = 41"
Waist to hip ratio (WHR): 84/103 = 0.82

Progress in 2011:
Day 11/7 26/7 08/8 22/8 05/9 19/9 3/10 17/10 31/10 14/11 28/11 12/12 27/12
BMI: 26.5 26.4 26.2 25.7 25.3 26.0 25.70 25.70 25.70 25.60 26.00 25.90 25.90
B-U: 8.00 5.00 8.00 8.00 8.00 10.0 10.00 13.00 11.00 14.00 15.00 16.00 16.00
Size 42AAA AAAA AAA AAA AAA AA 42AAA 42. A 42. A 42. A 42. B 42. B 42. B
WHR 0.95 .945 0.94 0.92 0.92 0.96 0.930 0.940 0.910 0.880 0.880 0.880 0.870

Progress in first half of 2012:
Day 09/1 23/1 06/2 20/2 05/3 19/3 02/4 16/4 30/4 14/5 28/5 11/6 25/6 09/7
BMI: 25.7 26.7 26.4 25.9 25.7 25.3 25.7 25.0 25.1 25.6 25.9 25.4 26.00 26.5
B-U: 17.0 18.0 18.0 18.0 20.0 18.0 18.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 27.0 25.0 25.00 26.0
Size 42 B 42 C 42 C 42 C 42 D 40 C 40D 38F 38F 40DD 40DD 40DD 40DD 40 F
WHR 0.84 0.86 0.84 0.86 0.84 0.84 0.83 0.81 0.80 0.79 0.82 0.81 0.830 0.82


Progress in second half of 2012:
Day 09/7 23/7
BMI: 26.5 26.5
B-U: 26.0 26.0
Size 40 F 40 F
WHR 0.82 0.82
B-U = Breast - Under in cm

[karen]

I found this chart that may be helpful for those that want to compare the potency of different forms of maca. (keep in mind that this info is from a site that sells extract and capsules)

http://www.macaex.com/index.php?cont=comp

Isabelle ....

I'm thinking about putting a weeks supply of Dried Hops through a food processor and then putting the chopped up hops in a tupperware container to keep it fresh. That should hold potency fairly well shouldn't it?

Crushing it up every night is a pain

Also what do you think of this Maca? Same place that I got the Dried Hops

https://www.oregonswildharvest.com/owh/b.../maca_root

Adjusting for weight, based on your daily amount, I would be taking 3 capsules per day. They have it cheaper in plain powder form ... but this would be easier for me.


karen

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

Make sure you use the dust that's left in the blender. The orange dust is what you need. My herb shop sell hops as whole strobiles, rubbed into leaflets, chopped, or powdered, so I guess it's OK.

I'm a bit worried about the recommended maca dose of 4 capsules, or 4,800 mg. If I would take 4,800 mg of mine every day, I wouldn't sleep. I tried about 4,000 mg this morning, and the fog in my head is starting to clear now, five hours later. So either the capsules are not as strong as my flour, or it's safer to try three capsules first, as you are planning.

The fog in my head could be from the new hops too, but I doubled fenugreek yesterday. And since I've started the new hops, my breasts don't feel full and tight any more. So maybe I should up the dose again: seven tablespoons. I'm changing too many things at the moment.

[karen]

Make sure you use the dust that's left in the blender. The orange dust is what you need.

I don't have any orange dust .... there are green flowers, and orange flowers, and green and orange flowers .... I don't turn them into a powder ... mainly want the big pieces chopped up a little ... that's it ... I have a feeling I'm gonna get "bad news" since I don't have orange powder

I'm a bit worried about the recommended maca dose of 4 capsules, or 4,800 mg. If I would take 4,800 mg of mine every day, I wouldn't sleep. I tried about 4,000 mg this morning, and the fog in my head is starting to clear now, five hours later. So either the capsules are not as strong as my flour, or it's safer to try three capsules first, as you are planning.

I'm thinking the capsules aren't as strong BUT .... it would make sense to ease into it anyway

The fog in my head could be from the new hops too, but I doubled fenugreek yesterday. And since I've started the new hops, my breasts don't feel full and tight any more. So maybe I should up the dose again: seven tablespoons. I'm changing too many things at the moment.

I'm still trying to find a "regime" that's consistent .... and works

How do you take your maca? ...... I could get plain old powder and portion it out when I take it

karen

[GorgeousBlonde]

Isabelle what action does fenugreek have on the body? I am considering adding it to my program of PM and Wild Yam, but id like to know the action it has on breast growth and on the human body.

[Isabelle]

Hi Karen,

Isn't there any orange dust at the bottom of the pot or the bag?

I stir one teaspoon of maca flour in water and drink it.

Hi GorgeousBlonde,

Fenugreek does a lot of different things, but none of them very strongly, so it's a relatively safe and easy herb to use.

The most important effect for NBE is the increase in prolactin: it's traditionally used as a galactogogue, mainly for horses. The increase in progesterone may be a consequence of the increase in prolactin. For me (186 lbs), 2,500 mg causes 1 cm of swelling after half an hour. After two hours, the swelling is gone.

Fenugreek contains a small amount of isoflavones, so it's slightly estrogenic. It contains much more diosgenin, and galactomannan. A few publications report a small increase of testosterone from low doses (500 mg), but the increase in estrogens is twice as high, and the increases in prolactin and progesterone are much higher. I use it mainly for prevention of estrogen dominance.

Fenugreek puts on weight. But because it increases insulin sensitivity, the weight does not go to the mid section. It goes mainly to the breasts.

Immediately after ingestion, fenugreek increases insulin. So it's hypoglycemic, and warming, because it turns the sugar into energy. If taken on an empty stomach, it should be followed by a meal with carbs. I once saw black before my eyes, because I didn't eat soon enough. Between 20 minutes and 1 1/2 hours is fine. Timing with respect to work outs is important too, but have little experience with that.

Fenugreek affects blood pressure too. Both upward and downward. I don't know which comes first.

Galactomannan is a fiber. So high fenugreek doses may cause some GI movement or even discomfort. In addition, fenugreek is a legume, so it may cause some gas.

I have taken up to 10, sometimes even 30 g for swelling on the day of the party. In some regions in India, people eat hands full of it for dessert. Those doses do not cause a stall, but because the effects on blood sugar are quite strong, one has to ease into it. Galactomannan absorbs a lot of water and forms a hard slime. It's important to drink enough water when using fenugreek.

Fenugreek has a strong, distinct smell as a topical. Some people write that when taken internally, it should also cause that smell. If not, they write, you're not taking enough. My dose is below that level, and I do have results. I grew fastest on 5,000 mg, and still grew on 2,500 mg too.

Fenugreek topicals for NBE are very effective and popular. But because of the smell and the color (yellow, hard to wash away), I would recommend wild yam for topicals, because it contains diosgenin too.

Because of the many effects, which are not simultaneous, fenugreek may cause confusing symptoms. Some people who have headaches from estrogen dominance, take fenugreek, and report the headache getting worse, probably because of low blood sugar and/or low blood pressure. These effects are temporary, though. Experimenting with timing is important for every use of fenugreek.

The weight gain from fenugreek may be too much of a good thing in some programs. Both estrogens and testosterone are anabolic, and estrogens may cause water retention. Added to this, the weight gain from fenugreek may be too much, certainly in combination with other weight gainers, like maca or saw palmetto.

[GorgeousBlonde]

thank you Isabelle! Smart blonde!

[jesse191]

Hi Isabelle,

I recently found out this thread and I have to say the information here is really awesome! Great advice and very resourceful

I am a male and about to start NBE, and is considering about red clover. However I do have some concern: does it affect the male fertility/ sperm count?

I also came across one of your post http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/estr...a.html#TOC, but I have to admit I'm really poor in reading chart and graphs. I would like to start with a 2mg of Estradiol Equivalents, so how much intake should I go for Red Clover (this is the one I'm taking >> http://www.affordablesolaray.com/1480.html) ?

I'm going to grab it as soon as I hear from you

Thanks a million

[Isabelle]

Thank you GorgeousBlonde

And welcome jesse191,

At normal NBE doses, there will be no effect. Even if there is one at high doses, it will be reversible.

I'm not a fan of red clover. The publication you linked says it's 50/50 phyto-estrogens/phyto-progestins. The progestins are not useful for a male starting NBE. They also limit the dose of estrogens you can take without stopping your growth.

All herbs in that study were tested at 2,000 mg. So at that dose, it's effective. You have to compare your body weight to the average body weight of the test subjects in the study. If you weigh more, you need more.

Red clover is one of the expensive herbs. The capsules are only 375 mg, which means you need at least five. A bottle of 100 will last 20 days at best. At $ 6.29, that's $ 10 a month. I take eight herbs and a multivitamin, and the whole program costs € 20 a month, that's $ 30.