[mochaccino]

At one point I think I remember you saying that you had a hormone test done. Is that correct? I know you were diagnosed and treated for a thyroid condition, but did you have your sex hormones tested as well? If you don't mind my asking, what were the results? Sorry if you already explained this in your thread, but I couldn't find the answer.

I've recently begun to think of myself as hard-gainer (rightly or wrongly ) and I was wondering about the experience of other hard-gainers, like yourself, who have also used PM. I know you've tried a long series of PM brands in the past and gotten no results from most of them, but did you feel anything, good or bad, while taking any of the ineffective brands? Did you get any symptoms of estrogen dominance from any of them? How far did you ramp up? Did you avoid taking more then the recommended dose, or did you continue ramping up until you either grew or got dominance symptoms? What is the maximum dose of PM you have ever taken on a daily basis? What brand was it and how did your dose differ from the dose recommended by that brand? In other words, was it half the recommended dose, or maybe twice the recommended dose etc? Lately I've been wondering if I might need a much higher than average dose of miroestrol, and I was wondering if you thought you might have had the same issue.

Sorry for all the questions, but I really, really appreciate the help. BTW I bought Ro-bust cream because of your recommendation, and you were right! It's awesome. After 9 months of absolutely nothing, this is the first thing that has given me pain every time right after I use it. It hurts so good The St.Herb cream sucked Thanks!

[lled34aa]

i went to the doctor(s) because i didn't get my period for 6 months. this was before i started PM. i was on BO when this happened. at the time, my results were low thyroids, slightly elevated testosterone, high prolactin. you would think with high prolactin, my boobs would be larger. but no such luck.

i forgot if i started taking PM before my thyroids medicine, or the other way around. but judging from my photos, this was around the time i started to show some growth. this was already 9 months into NBE for me. (that's 9 months of noogling with 0 growth )

at first i thought i wasn't getting any results from PM because when i compared month to month photos, they look almost the same. but given 3 months time, you can see a visible difference.

i didn't feel anything good or bad from the brands that i deemed ineffective for me. i stuck with st. herb capsules for the most part because i saw results, albeit slow. it wasn't until siriporn capsule + st herb capsule + robust that i started to feel more sensations.

because i generally didn't get any responses from PM, i ramped it up by a lot to see what would happen. when i started, i stuck to their recommended dosage. st herb is 4 capsules a day, siriporn is 2 a day. i've tried all sorts of combinations: 6 st. herb a day, 4 siriporn a day etc. at the highest level, i went a month taking 2 siriporn + 6 st. herb a day!!! i didn't experience any crazy symptoms, no major growth spurt, no difference in the lack of breast sensation.

currently i'm taking 2 siriporn + 2 st. herb a day. i don't advocate taking an insanely high amount of PM. but i do think that hard gainers need more than the recommended dosage. for some people, PM cream alone is enough to mess up their cycle. i on the other hand, can be swimming in a pool of PM cream and it probably wouldn't make any difference.

i do get estrogen dominant symptoms once in a while, but very rare. when i was taking TONS of PM, i don't remember getting any of the symptoms. so i don't know how reliable my "symptoms" are... it could just be that i was tired that day.

i no longer compare month to month photos as that can be very discouraging for slow gainers like me. but when i see the photos of when i started, and me 6 months ago, to now, there is no doubt a HUGE difference. so i guess as you're experimenting with new methods, and you're a slow gainer, give it a few months and take photos.

good luck! sorry i don't have definite answers to anything. all i can really say is what worked for me and what didn't.

[mochaccino]

That's so strange that you were able take such a large dose of PM without estrogen dominance symptoms. You mean the test didn't show low E? That's confusing Do you know if it was maybe in the lower range of normal? Did you ever come across any other interesting theories about why you might be insensitive to phytoestrogens? One last question When you tried taking very high doses of PM, were you also using PC at that time?

[lled34aa]

i tried taking high PM dosage with PC cream and without. there wasn't any notable differences. i don't know why my body was so insensitive to phytoestrogen. these days, i do believe i'm slightly more sensitive to PM.

[AbiDrew85]

It almost sounds like you might be slightly estrogen insensitive... It's not entirely uncommon, though it is sorta rare, especially among women.

Think of it this way. Lots of genetic males are androgen insensitive and wind up looking like and growing up as girls. Why shouldn't the opposite hormonal issue not also be possible, though since they don't produce the androgens either, they still look generally feminine, but just not womanly?

I'm afraid it may be extremely difficult for you to grow using any of the "faster" methods, super slow and steady for you... Emphasis on the steady... That noogleberry is going to have to be your new lover.

Iffff you believe in things like hypnosis and subliminals being able to do powerful things to our bodies, there's a subliminal maker who insists he can cure this... I'm honestly not so sure. There is no medically sanctioned cure for hormonal insensitivity syndromes.

Girls with bad enough estrogen insensitivity could literally flood themselves with any number of any kind of estrogens and they'll never react to any of it.

[TibetanPrincess]

In-sensitivities are generally caused by too much of something. So its possible you were just loaded on phytos at one time and this can be reversible.

Also, the liver converts this stuff so maybe you really need some liver cleansing and not just for a week type of cleanse.

You should bounce back and get to the doc. I mentioned this before and I know you have been but maybe its time for the HRT Dr. Real hormones.

Listen carefully: if your body does not make enough hormones, you NEED supplementation. You CAN get HRT prescribed by an MD.

This may be another and only option for you. Its mine right now and I cannot say much because I am just into it. But they say they are stronger and nothing like the otc kind, hence why you need a prescription.

I am on Bio Identicals for both estroidal and progesterone. I am also taking BO.

GoodLuck in the next!

[mochaccino]

But Tibetan, it sounds like the tests didn't find low sex hormones. Is that right lled?

[TibetanPrincess]

But Tibetan, it sounds like the tests didn't find low sex hormones. Is that right lled?

Mocha,
Well, I don't see how she would be so different than anybody else. I was too, a "slow responder" but I just happen to find what I needed and used it the 2nd time around, blindfoldingly. And my growth spurt from a full A to a B only took 3 weeks! Yes, that's how fast growth can happen when you take the right stuff. And here I had been trying on and off for years since 2005 and nothing! And I was in my mid twenties. But I took a 2 year break and then attempted again with PC.

Now for my 3rd attempt, my latest tests results were fine said 2 Dr.s that read my results. They just noted low progesterone.

But let me tell you, when I booked my HRT appt. with my MD 2 weeks later, he looked at those same test results and had me take some others and noted I was dangerously low in all hormones with progesterone being the lowest.

He said, I need HRT and adrenals are in stage 3 insufficiency! He has addressed many hormonal issues I have contributing to my endocrine imbalance.

Sometimes, you have to get more than 1 or 2 opinions and unless you are seeing an MD specifically for HRT or an Endo, you will need to dig far deeper than these tests.

I just don't see how the average woman and even Asian woman can grow significantly more than a cup size and she be any different. There is something imbalanced here that has been overlooked or not discovered yet.
LLed,
I felt the same way about myself in 2005. Besides being a slow responder, I thought I was just screwed with my hypothyroidism and lacked the boob genes.
But when I grew with my condition, I changed my attitude. I am no different than any other woman. I can grow too.

Now hormone output can change significantly at any time. SO if its been a year, Id test again. Also, is it possible you may have had an ineffective batch of PM? Do they test and know if every single batch has the potent phytochemical? and if so how much?
Lled & Mocha,
So stop putting yourself in that "other" category. You are a genetic female and can grow a significant pair if you wanted to.

[AbiDrew85]

So stop putting yourself in that "other" category. You are a genetic female and can grow a significant pair if you wanted to.

Bah, even genetic femaleness doesn't matter! I'm genetically male, and I'm already well on my way to getting a very significant pair with only a month into my program!

Yes, finding EXACTLY what is right for you is important... And it's still possible that lled can find something that's perfect for her, and mocha I think was saying she already has.

It is also possible that lled might be estrogen insensitive. Genetically. It's possible. Unlikely as this is, it strikes both men and women with impunity, it's just men don't generally notice the problem until they start getting much older and their skeleton starts taking a greater beating than anyone else.

She can still grow a significant pair, it's just going to take a lot more work. A lot more. And ANY phytoestrogens would actually be contra-indicated for her because her already weakened receptors would be flooded with something that she won't react to at all if she's having trouble reacting to her own natural estrogen.

I could of course be completely off-base, I'm just pointing out A possibility.

A possibility that indicates what she's already decided to do is exactly what's right for her. Stretched tissue is damaged tissue is tissue being divided and repaired into new tissue... Is slow slow slow growth. It works. It's just very slow, and very tedious.

[mochaccino]

Apparently there's only ever been one identified case of true estrogen insensitivity, and the article I read implies that the results of true estrogen insensitivity would be very severe and noticeable. I wonder if instead, in women like me and lled, our bodies are just massively over compensating for the excess estrogen by pumping out loads of SHBG, or down regulation is occuring at an unusually fast rate, or some other compensating mechanism I could never even think of. Of course, none of those other explanations are necessary if it turns out that we just have low E. NVMD the possibility that are issue are entirely different. Besides, lled and I are not the only women who have ever had a very muted response to PM. I wish I could remember their usernames. If low E is not the cause of a lack of response to PM, than it really is a big mystery.