[mochaccino]

Is that cycling schedule different from what you were doing at the time that you weren't getting results from PM?

[lled34aa]

no that's what i'm doing now. i've tried all sorts of combinations and cycling schedules in the past. for me, this routine seems to jive with my body the best (i get more breast sensations)

[mochaccino]

I've been a member of this board for only a few years, but I've been an on-again, off-again lurker on various NBE boards, since I was 19, which was 8 years ago. I firmly believe that, for the most part, the members of this board are amazingly honest, and are also some of the most helpful and caring people that I've found on any site. However, during those 9 years, I've seen quite a few people engage in ongoing deception and other bad behaviors, and I've also seen the community's attempts to self-police these people, with varying results.

Let me start by saying that there are not a lot of ways that you can get into serious trouble on a board like this one. I try not to bother myself with all the minor transgressions and pointless infighting that's inevitable on any internet forum. The more serious issues nearly always involve some kind of deception, and unless there's incontrovertible evidence, it can be really hard to bring this behavior to light, and most people who do suspect something don't want to risk exposing anybody without plenty of solid proof.

What's tricky is that with many seemingly deceptive people it never really becomes perfectly clear how much of their behavior is due to innocent self deception, and how much of it is driven by a conscious intention to deceive others, for whatever reason. I can understand feeling conflicted about whether or not it's right to point out this kind of deception. With others it's not quite so tricky, and the people who speak up are able to set out firm, incontrovertible evidence of intentional, extreme, and ongoing deception. For example, several people were proven to have taken pictures of other people from around the internet (usually porn models), and claimed them as their own. What's interesting is that a lot of these same people gave plenty of kind, helpful, and extremely well researched advice, and were generally very friendly. It's hard for me to imagine that everything that they did on this board was a charade, or had ill intentions behind it. I'm honestly still extremely confused about what motivated some of these people to engage in that kind of long term deception. More often than not, their intentions and motivations are not obvious even after the fact. In the end though, most of that is beside the point. This is not about my opinion of these people or their motivations.

What I'm really interested in is what the most active and influential members of the board intend to do about it in the future. That includes the moderator, Eve. I hope I can trust these people to do the right thing.

In the past, far too many times, I have seen the messenger shot, kicked, and drawn and quartered for attempting to point out deception and other bad behavior. More often than not, this has happened even when there is incontrovertible evidence of long term deceit, like the porn model pics I mentioned above. The more popular or admired the accused is, the more aggressive and unshakeable their apologists tend to be, no matter what kind of evidence is put forward. On top of that, there are usually lots of perfectly well intentioned, and reasonable people, who will attempt to squash any serious argument on the board, no matter how justified or necessary it is. It's those latter people who I'm appealing to, because the apologists are usually unreachable "true believers". I'm hoping that those people, who try so hard to avoid argument, will think about the amount of damage that might be done if deception is just allowed to run rampant. This is not about a grudge, or any one particular instance or person. The reason I bring this up, is because again, and again, and again I have seen this board fall into the pattern of shooting the messenger. It's as if we have no collective memory.

This is extremely discouraging to me, even more than realizing that people I chose to put my trust in have been lying to me and everyone else for long periods, which is something that has happened to me multiple times. For whatever it's worth, I'm making a plea to whomever will listen, that we not discourage people from pointing out deception and other bad behavior, as long as they do so within the boundaries of basic civility. In my opinion, they are within the boundaries of basic civility as long as they avoid any form of name calling, or attacks against the accused's character, and they give the accused plenty of opportunities to explain or correct themselves. Obviously, they should also have a reasonable amount of evidence. If you still chose to discourage people from speaking out, and actively punish them for it, even after they've met all these criteria, you should realize that you're unintentionally making it almost impossible for this board to self-police. The simple fact that the accused might be offended does not make it wrong to point out the bad behaviour, assuming it exists. Over the years, there have been several people who would have done far less damage to the members of this board if people had only been willing to speak out. I intend to make an effort to point out bad behavior in the future whenever I see fit. In the past, I've been guilty of taking the easy path and avoiding confrontation. I hope people understand that I say this with good intentions.

[Helena St]

Wish I could help more, but not only do I not use PC personally, but I also have no idea about the female cycle and what all these different phases are! I just remember seeing a chart where I believe estrogen dropped about halfway through, and then progesterone dropped about a week before "that time" of the month. >.<

I think Doll is right about PC postponing your period, when I was taking birth control continuously I started spotting/cramping on the day my period was supposed to start because my body was confused. The third day I finally used some PC (1 small dose) and it stopped the spotting totally.

ETA - oh I just realized I was reading an old post from page one thinking it was the last page, so you probably already figured this out lol!

[NotSoBusty]

I've been a member of this board for only a few years, but I've been an on-again, off-again lurker on various NBE boards, since I was 19, which was 8 years ago. I firmly believe that, for the most part, the members of this board are amazingly honest, and are also some of the most helpful and caring people that I've found on any site. However, during those 9 years, I've seen quite a few people engage in ongoing deception and other bad behaviors, and I've also seen the community's attempts to self-police these people, with varying results.

Let me start by saying that there are not a lot of ways that you can get into serious trouble on a board like this one. I try not to bother myself with all the minor transgressions and pointless infighting that's inevitable on any internet forum. The more serious issues nearly always involve some kind of deception, and unless there's incontrovertible evidence, it can be really hard to bring this behavior to light, and most people who do suspect something don't want to risk exposing anybody without plenty of solid proof.

What's tricky is that with many seemingly deceptive people it never really becomes perfectly clear how much of their behavior is due to innocent self deception, and how much of it is driven by a conscious intention to deceive others, for whatever reason. I can understand feeling conflicted about whether or not it's right to point out this kind of deception. With others it's not quite so tricky, and the people who speak up are able to set out firm, incontrovertible evidence of intentional, extreme, and ongoing deception. For example, several people were proven to have taken pictures of other people from around the internet (usually porn models), and claimed them as their own. What's interesting is that a lot of these same people gave plenty of kind, helpful, and extremely well researched advice, and were generally very friendly. It's hard for me to imagine that everything that they did on this board was a charade, or had ill intentions behind it. I'm honestly still extremely confused about what motivated some of these people to engage in that kind of long term deception. More often than not, their intentions and motivations are not obvious even after the fact. In the end though, most of that is beside the point. This is not about my opinion of these people or their motivations.

What I'm really interested in is what the most active and influential members of the board intend to do about it in the future. That includes the moderator, Eve. I hope I can trust these people to do the right thing.

In the past, far too many times, I have seen the messenger shot, kicked, and drawn and quartered for attempting to point out deception and other bad behavior. More often than not, this has happened even when there is incontrovertible evidence of long term deceit, like the porn model pics I mentioned above. The more popular or admired the accused is, the more aggressive and unshakeable their apologists tend to be, no matter what kind of evidence is put forward. On top of that, there are usually lots of perfectly well intentioned, and reasonable people, who will attempt to squash any serious argument on the board, no matter how justified or necessary it is. It's those latter people who I'm appealing to, because the apologists are usually unreachable "true believers". I'm hoping that those people, who try so hard to avoid argument, will think about the amount of damage that might be done if deception is just allowed to run rampant. This is not about a grudge, or any one particular instance or person. The reason I bring this up, is because again, and again, and again I have seen this board fall into the pattern of shooting the messenger. It's as if we have no collective memory.

This is extremely discouraging to me, even more than realizing that people I chose to put my trust in have been lying to me and everyone else for long periods, which is something that has happened to me multiple times. For whatever it's worth, I'm making a plea to whomever will listen, that we not discourage people from pointing out deception and other bad behavior, as long as they do so within the boundaries of basic civility. In my opinion, they are within the boundaries of basic civility as long as they avoid any form of name calling, or attacks against the accused's character, and they give the accused plenty of opportunities to explain or correct themselves. Obviously, they should also have a reasonable amount of evidence. If you still chose to discourage people from speaking out, and actively punish them for it, even after they've met all these criteria, you should realize that you're unintentionally making it almost impossible for this board to self-police. The simple fact that the accused might be offended does not make it wrong to point out the bad behaviour, assuming it exists. Over the years, there have been several people who would have done far less damage to the members of this board if people had only been willing to speak out. I intend to make an effort to point out bad behavior in the future whenever I see fit. In the past, I've been guilty of taking the easy path and avoiding confrontation. I hope people understand that I say this with good intentions.

RESPECT from me to you, Mochaccino!

[Doll]

RESPECT from me to you, Mochaccino!

AGREED. I want to thank you for taking the time out of your day to write such a post, even though many people probably won't have the patience to sit through and read it. You are a truly dedicated member here, and we all really appreciate that.

[TibetanPrincess]

I've been a member of this board for only a few years, but I've been an on-again, off-again lurker on various NBE boards, since I was 19, which was 8 years ago. I firmly believe that, for the most part, the members of this board are amazingly honest, and are also some of the most helpful and caring people that I've found on any site. However, during those 9 years, I've seen quite a few people engage in ongoing deception and other bad behaviors, and I've also seen the community's attempts to self-police these people, with varying results.

Let me start by saying that there are not a lot of ways that you can get into serious trouble on a board like this one. I try not to bother myself with all the minor transgressions and pointless infighting that's inevitable on any internet forum. The more serious issues nearly always involve some kind of deception, and unless there's incontrovertible evidence, it can be really hard to bring this behavior to light, and most people who do suspect something don't want to risk exposing anybody without plenty of solid proof.

What's tricky is that with many seemingly deceptive people it never really becomes perfectly clear how much of their behavior is due to innocent self deception, and how much of it is driven by a conscious intention to deceive others, for whatever reason. I can understand feeling conflicted about whether or not it's right to point out this kind of deception. With others it's not quite so tricky, and the people who speak up are able to set out firm, incontrovertible evidence of intentional, extreme, and ongoing deception. For example, several people were proven to have taken pictures of other people from around the internet (usually porn models), and claimed them as their own. What's interesting is that a lot of these same people gave plenty of kind, helpful, and extremely well researched advice, and were generally very friendly. It's hard for me to imagine that everything that they did on this board was a charade, or had ill intentions behind it. I'm honestly still extremely confused about what motivated some of these people to engage in that kind of long term deception. More often than not, their intentions and motivations are not obvious even after the fact. In the end though, most of that is beside the point. This is not about my opinion of these people or their motivations.

What I'm really interested in is what the most active and influential members of the board intend to do about it in the future. That includes the moderator, Eve. I hope I can trust these people to do the right thing.

In the past, far too many times, I have seen the messenger shot, kicked, and drawn and quartered for attempting to point out deception and other bad behavior. More often than not, this has happened even when there is incontrovertible evidence of long term deceit, like the porn model pics I mentioned above. The more popular or admired the accused is, the more aggressive and unshakeable their apologists tend to be, no matter what kind of evidence is put forward. On top of that, there are usually lots of perfectly well intentioned, and reasonable people, who will attempt to squash any serious argument on the board, no matter how justified or necessary it is. It's those latter people who I'm appealing to, because the apologists are usually unreachable "true believers". I'm hoping that those people, who try so hard to avoid argument, will think about the amount of damage that might be done if deception is just allowed to run rampant. This is not about a grudge, or any one particular instance or person. The reason I bring this up, is because again, and again, and again I have seen this board fall into the pattern of shooting the messenger. It's as if we have no collective memory.

This is extremely discouraging to me, even more than realizing that people I chose to put my trust in have been lying to me and everyone else for long periods, which is something that has happened to me multiple times. For whatever it's worth, I'm making a plea to whomever will listen, that we not discourage people from pointing out deception and other bad behavior, as long as they do so within the boundaries of basic civility. In my opinion, they are within the boundaries of basic civility as long as they avoid any form of name calling, or attacks against the accused's character, and they give the accused plenty of opportunities to explain or correct themselves. Obviously, they should also have a reasonable amount of evidence. If you still chose to discourage people from speaking out, and actively punish them for it, even after they've met all these criteria, you should realize that you're unintentionally making it almost impossible for this board to self-police. The simple fact that the accused might be offended does not make it wrong to point out the bad behaviour, assuming it exists. Over the years, there have been several people who would have done far less damage to the members of this board if people had only been willing to speak out. I intend to make an effort to point out bad behavior in the future whenever I see fit. In the past, I've been guilty of taking the easy path and avoiding confrontation. I hope people understand that I say this with good intentions.

RESPECT from me to you, Mochaccino!

Exactly how I feel! Thanks for posting this.

[mochaccino]

Thanks for reading my ramblings, ladies
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Lately, I've been giving a lot of thought to the idea of copying pubertal hormone levels using bio-identical creams. Months ago, in my prior program, I mentioned the possibility of using bio-identical creams, but I was talked out of it. It was argued that bio-identicals are more dangerous than non-human hormones and hormone like substances, but the more I think about that argument, the more holes I see in it. Lately Abidrew has been talking about the dangers of Premarin, and it really got me thinking. I had heard about that before, but had never put enough thought into what it might imply about BE in general.

The animal hormones and hormone-like substances used in birth control have proven time and time again to be much more dangerous than bio-identical hormones. On the other hand, most phytoestrogens are considerably weaker than real human estrogen, and some herbs even affect hormones indirectly rather than binding directly to estrogen receptors. That means that they are far less likely to cause estrogen dominance symptoms than either BC or bio-identicals, and if you take way to much, you'll probably end up lowering the overall effect of estrogen in your body, rather than raising it. For example, Fenugreek indirectly raises estrogen and possibly progesterone, so it doesn't complete bypass the body's regulatory mechanisms. In my opinion, that's why it's one of the safest NBE herbs, and why most people don't seem to get any unpleasant sex hormone related side effects after taking too much. On the other hand, people do get hypoglycemic when they OD on FG, which goes to show you that because of the huge number of different chemicals in all herbs, the effects on the body are often scatter-shot and unpredictable. With other herbs, the potential side effects are much worse, but the majority of popular herbs on this board are relatively safe, at least in the short term.

Bio-identical hormones are much easier to OD on, but they do have one major advantage, and it's an extremely important one. With bio-identicals I can raise my hormones by an exact amount that is individualized to my existing hormone levels. With herbs you can never quite know exactly how much your hormones are shifting in different directions, and what else in your body might be being affected. This makes dosing extremely unpredictable, and it's one of the main reasons, IMO, that so many programs fail. The catch is that, if I choose to take bio-identicals, I will need to have very specific goal posts in mind for my hormone levels, and I'll need to do regular saliva tests. It's also essential that my dosing be absolutely perfect. I'll be testing myself after next cycle in order to establish a baseline, unless I magically start to get explosive growth from PM next cycle, in which case, this is all moot. I'm going to lay out a brief skeleton of my possible program in my next post. I won't actually start on this new program unless I can figure out a way to do it safely and predictably. As always, I welcome any contradictions, advice, explanations etc.

[mochaccino]

Here's the rundown of my potential program. I was thinking of taking bio-identical estradiol and progesterone creams and varying their levels throughout the cycle in a way that imitates the average levels during puberty. Right now I have no idea how to do this, and I don't even know if it's feasible. It might be way to finicky, and it might not even guarantee growth in an adult. Adults are different from teenagers in a million different ways. Adults might need a somewhat different balance of hormones in order to grow. The truth is I have no idea.

Isabelle has always said that it might be necessary to induce very slight estrogen dominance in order to grow, but I've never seen any solid proof that this is the case. If so, the goal would be to keep the symptoms of dominance to an absolute minimum while remaining estrogen dominant, but it's hard to say what an acceptable minimal amount of symptoms would be. What I do know (and Isabelle knew), is that estrogen dominance does not seem to cause breast growth in and of itself. If it's true that very slight estrogen dominance is necessary for adults on horomonal BE, than that complicates things even further.

I'm also considering including wild oat extract, and l-arginine, but I'm not sure. They're each going to need their own long paragraph, so try not to die of boredom

The wild oat extract is meant to lower SHBG. SHBG is whole 'nother monster, and I'm not sure how it relates to all my other hormones and what I should do about it. I'm worried that my SHBG will shoot up in response to the excess hormones and then fail to go back down after I stop taking them. I've heard that this sometimes happens after people stop taking birth control. Should I wait until I'm done with my program, and take wild oat only during the final ramp down? Is wild oat even the best choice for this or would something else work better? Is it even worth thinking about, or will a slow ramp-down over several months be enought to balance my hormones on it's own? I've also been concerned that my testosterone will dip too low as my SHBG rises. I'm not really sure how to prevent this, or even if it's necessary to prevent it. I wouldn't take Maca to raise testosterone, because I don't think it's been well established that it does. Instead, I could try lowering my SHBG in order to raise my testosterone, but it might be dangerous to do that while raising my other sex hormones at the same time. My questions about SHBG boil down to whether I should attempt to lower it at all, and if so, should I attempt to lower it throughout my program, or should I wait until the final ramp down?

The L-arginine is meant to raise my prolactin. I know that a lot of people have taken l-arginine to raise their levels of growth hormone, but there just isn't enough evidence to know for sure that it does. Even if it does, it probably only does so if taken immediately before a serious resistance work out. I honestly hope that it does raise HGH, because that might be a huge help. More importantly, is it really even a good idea to raise my prolactin? Prolactin tends to suppress the production of E and P, and my natural E and P levels will already be suppressed by the influx of extra hormones. The only reason I'm even considering L-arginine is because IdreamofD and MydreamisGcup grew so well when they took it along with their programs that were very high in both estrogen and progesterone. I tried contacting them to find out if they kept their massive growth, but neither of them got back to me. I wish I had more solid evidence that raising all 3 hormones is a good idea.

Smart people, please help!! This is all way too complicated for me, but I'm going to continue to research this as much as I can before giving up on the idea.

[TibetanPrincess]

Mocha,
I am surprised you are barely coming to this conclusion or speculation for your potential NBE program now.
I Don't know if you have been up to speed on my program, but this is the first month of me taking my bio identicals. I waited 1.5 months to add it in my NBE program just to make sure it wouldn't be too much.

I did my tests specifically to see if I was eligible for HRT for this very reason(NBE).

I am currently on BO but I know since I am low on all hormones, I will need extra help. I am taking estradoil and progesterone. He gave me estroil but I am not currently using it. I should though as estradoil is far more dangerous but it will only be 3 months and I think I will add this in.

I am never afraid to try something and I knew when my doc said I needed these, I was grateful to take the chance. He starting me off low but I will give it 3 months.
Progesterone alone may yeild some results like last time but like you said, Bios are far more potent so I am excited to see what it may bring.

You need a HRT Doc. This therapy is pricy. But you may find it cheaper some how. But don't let this compromise you finding a great MD that can really help you.

There is a chance you are a candidate. Again like I have said for eons, just get your tests done. You will know if everything or even one thing is low when your MD tells you your results.

Crossing fingers for you