[mochaccino]

The issue here is that another website, Rakuten, lists 707 reviews with an average of 3.9 out of 5 stars. A lot of the things I buy on a regular basis are bought online, since it's usually cheaper that way, and I have existing rules that I follow when deciding whether or not to take reviews seriously. Typically when I see an extremely high number of reviews for any product (over 500) I take that as a sign that a large of the reviews are genuine, so I don't know what to think in this case. Rakuten is similar to Amazon, and I know that when I shop on Amazon, products that have more than 10, but less than 100 reviews tend to be chock full of reviews that seem fake. That includes includes not only fake positive reviews paid for by the company that sells the product, but fake negative reviews by opposing companies. This is especially true of "iffy" products that tend to be sold by a number of companies that all use questionable marketing practices. Diet pills tend to be one such kind of product, and PM is another kind of product that definitely falls into that category IMO. On the other hand, I know that it's technically possible that a company would pay for hundreds of positive reviews on a single website, but in my experience it seems like most companies actually don't. Of course I have absolutely no way of proving that, even to myself, and I don't know for certain that Ladies Pueraria hasn't paid for an unusually huge number of reviews on Rakuten. I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it, rightly or wrongly.

About the review site link above, I can't tell if that review site is obviously genuine like Makeupalley.com or if it's one of those very iffy review sites that seems to exist just to post paid reviews. Some of those iffy sites do seem to allow real reviews into the mix, just to enhance credibility. Normally I would have no trouble telling which kind of review site I'm looking at, but all that google translate nonsense is making it too difficult to pick up on the small cues. If that site really is a Makeupalley type site, than I would take the reviews very seriously, but since I can't tell how trustworthy that site actually is, I automatically give more weight to the site that has more reviews, and in this case, Rakuten has more than 10 times as many reviews.

[mochaccino]

Some of these women do seem to be saying that they used it for a while and got no results, and some of those women were even following a cycling program. On the other hand, there also seem to be a whole lot of reviews that just say that it made their cycle longer, gave them menstrual issues, or gave them estrogen dominance type issues. All of those possible side effects are to be expected when taking any brand of PM, especially if it's strong, so I tend to disregard those reviews. The ones that claim no growth, even when cycling, do concern me.

[TibetanPrincess]

Some of these women do seem to be saying that they used it for a while and got no results, and some of those women were even following a cycling program. On the other hand, there also seem to be a whole lot of reviews that just say that it made their cycle longer, gave them menstrual issues, or gave them estrogen dominance type issues. All of those possible side effects are to be expected when taking any brand of PM, especially if it's strong, so I tend to disregard those reviews. The ones that claim no growth, even when cycling, do concern me.

You have to consider that every one's body is chemically differing in the amount of hormones they are producing in the first place. Then you have to factor how they are taking it and with what, as well as how long they take it. We have all learned here, what works for one, does not work for someone else.

I think with this expensive Japanese method, its a hit or miss like any thing else.

Just curious mocha, what other NBE methods have you tried? I know you have been at this for a while. Have you done tests every time you did a new protocol?

[Mono]

Yes it's a Makeupalley kind of website, you can even read reviews of WHITEX which are really positive. Here's some quotes:
No effect at all I have been several times to challenge me! 
No effect despite high mess shopping was purchased has been well presented in bust-up blog ↓ 
I feel wonder what effect had breast augmentation with this really
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=fr&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.cosme.net/product/product_id/311250/review/501075053&usg=ALkJrhi6CKAHkG3tKh2wf1R6KfKCoa9DZg
They basically take it in the follicular phase.
When you translate the rakuten's review you can actually read that most of the girls never grew and got bad side effects (they mentioned bleeding, headache ...) But the reviews are still positive because it includes review of the sellers services, packaging, shipping ... And a lot of girls also said it improved their skin. If you strictly focus on nbe then even reviews on rakuten are not that great.

[mochaccino]

Tibetan, it probably would be better to ask me that question on my program thread, but I'll give you a quick answer here. If you have any follow up questions you can ask them on my thread or by PM.

I played around with the NB on and off (mostly off), for a little while before I started taking BE seriously. I've only been taking BE seriously for about a year now. I started out by doing NB and a few non-hormonal supps like collagen and MSM from around October to December of last year. I had no intention of following that program long term. Basically I was just biding time and entertaining myself until I could figure out what kind of herbal program I wanted to follow. Eventually I settled on Wahaika's recommended program which I started in January and followed for about 6 months with no results. During that time I switched to a cycling version of his program that he recommends, but it was still essentially the same program. I took PC for 2 weeks before starting PM. After that I started out taking by taking PM in follicular and Greenbush herbs in luteal. Then I cut out the herbs and switched to just taking PM and PC. This last cycle I only took PM and didn't take any PC because I was worried that I had been taking too much. So far I don't think I've had any growth in the past year, except for maybe a smidge of growth from the NB leg of my program, and then a smidge more due to about 10 lbs of weight gain (shame on me). Originally, I thought I had a had a fairly huge amount of growth from the NB, but looking back on it I think I was just over excited, and I must have gained less than half a cup size. I don't really think that the herbs or PM contributed anything, and I can't say for sure that the "growth" from NB was permanent. I'm beginning to doubt it heavily.

[Mono]

Don't give up. If herbs don't work for you there's still bo.

[mochaccino]

Thanks Mono, what you said about those reviews is very relevant. It makes me wonder if these Japanese brands are really any better than some of the cheaper brands like Ainterol. If Suplife doesn't feel any different than Ainterol felt, I definitely won't consider switching to an even more expensive brand of PM like Ladies. This does raise the question of whether the massive growth in their programs had anything to do with higher quality PM, or was entirely due to including an animal source of estrogen, and/or using strongly progesteronic herbs during luteal.

[TibetanPrincess]

Thanks Mono, what you said about those reviews is very relevant. It makes me wonder if these Japanese brands are really any better than some of the cheaper brands like Ainterol. If Suplife doesn't feel any different than Ainterol felt, I definitely won't consider switching to an even more expensive brand of PM like Ladies. This does raise the question of whether the massive growth in their programs had anything to do with higher quality PM, or was entirely due to including an animal source of estrogen, and/or using strongly progesteronic herbs during luteal.

Yeah, you def still have some things to try. Good thing you are getting your panel done.
I also believe the same about us brands compared to any other. If it works, it works. Why spend more if you simply do not have to.

[LookingForward2NBE]

I havent started NBE yet, still researching and going to complete a 30d saliva panel to see exactly where my hormones as a baseline and then do a 2nd 30d panel after I start my program that I am finalizing.

Chinese products are notorious for not declaring everything that is added to the formulations. I have a feeling Ladies Puearia and/or potentially Whitex that are seen as the gold standard may have something else added to to them that isn't disclosed on the label. If it truly works as well as some of those B&A (I intended on using it at this point) - I have a suspicion of something that might be in it that could potentially be dangerous if consumed for a long period of time. Looking to see if I can confirm my hunch when I get my 1st packages by finding a testing lab prior to taking it. That isn't to say that I won't take it if my hunch is right but at least I'll know what is going on and make take an educated risk to continue.

Just some food for thought.. if Brand X works and Brand Y doesn't as well.. and if you're sure PM is just PM is just PM.. then you have to ask yourself why???

One thing I know for sure is.. PM from Company Y can be drastically different then PM from company X. How the material is handled and grown makes a huge difference in it's potency.

Pure Root powder
Pure Root Extract Powder (20%, 40%, 99% etc.)

Then even between the extract manufacturers, just because one is 99% extract, if that 99% extract (specific phytoestrogen) isn't the one that is responsible for breast enhancement.. then it means nothing. The 20% from Company X could be way better if that 20% phytoestrogen is the one responsible for NBE. It really depends on what is standardized for and even a component that isn't standardized could be the component that is actually active. Each extraction method that each raw material manufacture develops pulls different phytoestrogens out of the root powder. Depending on how long the root powder is kept in extraction solvent, depending on when the root was harvest and milled, depending on which solvent was used and grade of solvent, then how the solvent was evaporated to recover the extraction powder (temperature, length of evaporation, if the extraction was a double extraction (aqueous and solvent), if it was done under high pressure (supercritical extraction) etc.

Point is.. don`t be so quick to make general assumptions of PM is just PM is just PM.. cause it isn`t that simple. Expensive doesn`t mean quality and Inexpensive doesn`t mean poor quality. It`s a matter of finding the product that works.

It`s not like brand Ibuprofen and generic Ibuprofen. It`s very easy to control synthetics and have 100% confidence in equivalency. Plant based material, especially extracts are much more convoluated in understanding what you are consuming. This is why TCM is such an art as it is science.

Soil conditions, Age of Plant-Root, once harvested can lose potency quickly so handling post harveset is very important, how it`s turned to powder is important, how it`s extract ed is important, subspecies of plant etc.

[LookingForward2NBE]

As for me... I`m looking for NBE to avoid implants. The cost of implants lets assume for a good physician and implant will run probably $8,000 with stay etc. So any diet-herbal approach for 6months to 12months should significantly less then surgery. So spending a bit on expensive herbals shouldnt be a motivating factor if it works.

My approach is going to be 1st.. try a few herbs and creams to see how my body reacts (Goat`s rue tincture rub with EPO, Wild Yam, Green Papaya, anti-androgen to keep test low and a Progestrone booster (either chasteberry or Dong Quai)) and chicken feet soup broth for collagen and a few other things. I think my issue is probably not related to estrogen and probably more to Progrestrone and potentially even Test. Along with 2x 30min daily massage.

Then, depending on how my body reacts, I may add PM based on the ``proven`` PM approach from these Japanese women with the knowledge that it could potentially be misleading by them on results. By doing so, I intend on buying the exact same products as them. So I will be doing the PM-Whitex-NanoCollagen-etc.

Then if Ì`m not getting results or not happy with progress, I will switch over to organ meat approach - BO + placenta etc..