[AbiDrew85]

...with one exception (since you are looking for more experienced opinions.) Wild Yam is not as useless as some of the newer forum members seem to think. It goes with fenugreek and saw palmetto. They work together. It would be good to dump the Red Clover. Sorry, I did not get a chance to get back here before now. It looks like interest in continuing is gone.

Wahaika

Wahaika. I want to know what you base your unquestioning support for WY on. That's the ONE thing you keep espousing that I just can NOT understand. No matter how much research I have done on the subject, I have never found ANYTHING that supports the use of WY for NBE as ANYTHING except a fat booster. Perhaps since Wahaika has decided to leave the boards someone else could be so kind as to enlighten me on this magic formula? Everything I've seen and studied tells me that magic formula's aren't real. And any magic formula with WY in it is even MORE questionable to me. What purpose is it supposed to be serving?

From what I know of those three herbs, that combination would be basically a half-assed attempt at fat redistribution using herbs that are only mildly useful for that and are better used to other purposes. Saw Palmetto is best used by people with excess DHT to suppress 5-alpha-reductase, and fenugreek is better used in concert with another strong phytoestrogen as a booster herb. WY... Useless for NBE...

FG, SP, WY is essentially plumping up fat cells and praying it all goes to the boobs. Which it might. But what happens when that person goes off that combination and/or starts a weight loss program? Pop goes the balloon.

I'd like to know what secret about these herbs do I not know that could possibly make this combination actually helpful for true breast development? Anything? Or is my assessment completely correct?

[TibetanPrincess]

...with one exception (since you are looking for more experienced opinions.) Wild Yam is not as useless as some of the newer forum members seem to think. It goes with fenugreek and saw palmetto. They work together. It would be good to dump the Red Clover. Sorry, I did not get a chance to get back here before now. It looks like interest in continuing is gone.

Wahaika

Wahaika. I want to know what you base your unquestioning support for WY on. That's the ONE thing you keep espousing that I just can NOT understand. No matter how much research I have done on the subject, I have never found ANYTHING that supports the use of WY for NBE as ANYTHING except a fat booster. Perhaps since Wahaika has decided to leave the boards someone else could be so kind as to enlighten me on this magic formula? Everything I've seen and studied tells me that magic formula's aren't real. And any magic formula with WY in it is even MORE questionable to me. What purpose is it supposed to be serving?

From what I know of those three herbs, that combination would be basically a half-assed attempt at fat redistribution using herbs that are only mildly useful for that and are better used to other purposes. Saw Palmetto is best used by people with excess DHT to suppress 5-alpha-reductase, and fenugreek is better used in concert with another strong phytoestrogen as a booster herb. WY... Useless for NBE...

FG, SP, WY is essentially plumping up fat cells and praying it all goes to the boobs. Which it might. But what happens when that person goes off that combination and/or starts a weight loss program? Pop goes the balloon.

I'd like to know what secret about these herbs do I not know that could possibly make this combination actually helpful for true breast development? Anything? Or is my assessment completely correct?

WY is what gave me my first growth spurt (pc cream). I guess some bodies can take it as diosgenin while others can't. I am just happy to be able to get an rx for the lab converted version. Now some women claim to have used it alone for their meno issues and breast growth was an unexpected side effect.


So maybe for some bodies eh?

As for the combo, I think there is more to it than is noted on sites. With just one herb alone, there are 100's of different phyto compounds/properties. I'd say your better off asking a Chinese medicine practitioner.

[AbiDrew85]

WY is what gave me my first growth spurt (pc cream). I guess some bodies can take it as diosgenin while others can't. I am just happy to be able to get an rx for the lab converted version. Now some women claim to have used it alone for their meno issues and breast growth was an unexpected side effect.


So maybe for some bodies eh?

As for the combo, I think there is more to it than is noted on sites. With just one herb alone, there are 100's of different phyto compounds/properties. I'd say your better off asking a Chinese medicine practitioner.

Thank you for you honest assessment. I suppose it might be possible for something in some peoples bodies to be able to provide the appropriate catalyst for converting the diosgenin in WY... Or maybe the catalyst is in the combination itself? But that begs the question... Just which hormone or combination of hormones and at what levels is the diosgenin being converted?

It still feels too much like a wild stab in the dark. I can't help it, I have a very scientific approach to things. I need to have studies and research and real solid evidence to back something up.

As for a Chinese medicine practitioner... Happen to know one? I don't... And I'm certainly not going to pay one when what they end up knowing is little more than what I do and maybe some anecdotal "but it worked on her!".

[TibetanPrincess]

WY is what gave me my first growth spurt (pc cream). I guess some bodies can take it as diosgenin while others can't. I am just happy to be able to get an rx for the lab converted version. Now some women claim to have used it alone for their meno issues and breast growth was an unexpected side effect.


So maybe for some bodies eh?

As for the combo, I think there is more to it than is noted on sites. With just one herb alone, there are 100's of different phyto compounds/properties. I'd say your better off asking a Chinese medicine practitioner.

Thank you for you honest assessment. I suppose it might be possible for something in some peoples bodies to be able to provide the appropriate catalyst for converting the diosgenin in WY... Or maybe the catalyst is in the combination itself? But that begs the question... Just which hormone or combination of hormones and at what levels is the diosgenin being converted?

It still feels too much like a wild stab in the dark. I can't help it, I have a very scientific approach to things. I need to have studies and research and real solid evidence to back something up.

As for a Chinese medicine practitioner... Happen to know one? I don't... And I'm certainly not going to pay one when what they end up knowing is little more than what I do and maybe some anecdotal "but it worked on her!".

I'm sure most would know much more about these age old herbs used for centuries compared to you and I combined. every now and again I hear of these practitioners devising programs for their patients that request them. We have tons here in Cali

[AbiDrew85]

I'm sure most would know much more about these age old herbs used for centuries compared to you and I combined. every now and again I hear of these practitioners devising programs for their patients that request them. We have tons here in Cali

Yeah... Sorry... I guess I'm just a bit riled up still over being referred to as a "transvestite rookie".

I'm in NW Ohio... I don't know of any here at all. And even if I did. I have no money if they asked for it to tell me anything. I honestly doubt they'd tell me anything even if I'd paid them for it though. They'd rather I pay them to cook me up their own recipe for what I'm trying to do probably.

Which might be a good idea... If I had money.

[Luxy]

Wahaika is an idiot. I myself am a biologically born female but after seeing that bullshit she posted i'm glad shes gone. People like her think somehow its their business to impede on what other people do with their body and its not.

[TibetanPrincess]

Wahaika is an idiot. I myself am a biologically born female but after seeing that bullshit she posted i'm glad shes gone. People like her think somehow its their business to impede on what other people do with their body and it not.

Luxy, you mean "HE."

[Luxy]

Wahaika is an idiot. I myself am a biologically born female but after seeing that bullshit she posted i'm glad shes gone. People like her think somehow its their business to impede on what other people do with their body and it not.

Luxy, you mean "HE."

yeah I just saw that in your other post lolol.

[surferjoe2007]

Wild yam sold as progesterone is total bunk. Wild yam is not progesterone. Progesterone may be made from wild yam but this is entirely synthetic and not a natural product. You can also synthesize vitamins out of petroleum; doesn't mean downing crude oil has any benefit. Or another example is that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water, but you can't drink either element nor can you breathe water. Uncovering this has led many people to think wild yam is useless. But it isn't. Wild yam contains large amounts of diosgenin which is a steroidal saponin. It is also the main steroidal saponin found in fenugreek. It might be overcomplicating things compared to doubling your fenugreek (or maybe not, maybe it contains other compounds too), but it is far from useless.

Steroidal saponins have hormone like effects. AFAIK they work by deregulating your own hormones. They seem to affect all of them, and not any one in particular.

So wild yam is helpful. Wild yam is not progesterone and progesterone, even progesterone synthesized from wild yam, is not wild yam.

I wouldn't believe everything someone says but I wouldn't be quick to dismiss an experienced opinion either. The specific combo of FG, SP and WY is the one greenbush.net uses and Wahaika often recommends them. I assume Wahaika's wife used it successfully. They do use way more herb than many other sellers who instead have cheap products containing 100 different label beautifying herbs totaling to a very small amount. Then they (not greenbush) charge $60 for what cost them $1. In general avoid any product that has a small convenient dose and yet doesn't contain any concentrated extracts to squeeze all that herb into such a small space. Often their ingredient list is hard to find or uses scientific names to hide it. That way people won't wonder why they pay $60 a bottle for what costs $7 a pound if it's not an extract.

[AbiDrew85]

Steroidal saponins have hormone like effects. AFAIK they work by deregulating your own hormones. They seem to affect all of them, and not any one in particular.

Deregulating? As in turning off the negative feedback loop? So that increasing levels do not shut down your hormone production?

I suppose I could see how that could be useful in some cases where your regulatory systems are kicking in too early. Doesn't seem to make sense why you'd want to combine that with another deregulator and an anti-androgen. Are we trying to make our bodies produce an excessive amount of all other hormones but DHT? And then block some small portion of that excess T from binding? Still feels like a "stab in the dark" way of doing things.

I could instead see combining a de-regulator with a phyto-estrogen with an anti-androgen (or two) with a pc.

I dunno... I guess it -could- work for -some- people. But it'd be way too stabby.

And as you can tell by this thread even existing, I didn't just totally dismiss what Wahaika was saying. I asked him to explain several times and every time he just ignored me. Of course, as you can see in his "I'm leaving" post, we now know why.