[surferjoe2007]

I dunno, I only found the word "unregulate" in the study, as in production of X in response to a hormone was unregulated. As far as I know it's the same as saying that it makes you more sensitive to your own hormones. Yes steroidal saponins do tend to combine very well with phytoestrogens. Pueraria mirifica + fenugreek tends to work very well, for example. Whereas pueraria mirifica + a real phytoestrogen tends to create competition that lessens the effect of the PM.

It's a local effect in a single organ not the whole loop which spans multiple organs. So again I take that as meaning the same as increased sensitivity.

The steroidal saponin herbs that I know of are fenugreek, wild yam, goat's rue and shatavari. For all of those except wild yam I have read about increased testosterone in men, and yet increased estrogen, progesterone and prolactin in women. I have read about increased sensitivity to insulin in fenugreek and goat's rue. And I wouldn't be surprised if all of these apply to all 4; I just haven't read it.

[AbiDrew85]

Very interesting! Thanks for the very wonderful explanation! I can definitely see how that combination could be helpful for women with already a normal and high hormone balance then. That would be the only situation in which I'd see recommending it though.

Anyone who needs hormonal supplementation will of course be different.

Hm. Now I'm seriously considering adding WY myself in with my PM + PC + anti-androgen based plan. Increased receptivity could only be a nice thing ^^

[surferjoe2007]

Oh, I just realized this thread was all mostly male sorry nevermind (<= edit). Too bad what happened with wahaika. He doesn't deserve that kind of negative response. Well, any female that comes across this should know that steroidal saponins are especially good for them. Or straight males who aren't taking phytoestrogens and want testosterone. They don't give men with normal hormones moobs.

[LookingForward2NBE]

Just because something is poorly understood, especially it's mechanism of action doesn't suggest that real world results are not valid are to be withdrawn. Imperical evidence suggests there is something to it and that it seems to have a synergist effect with PM, BO, Placenta, FG, SP and even Clover. However it compliments things, it just seems to work and fortunately, is an inexpensive and relatively safe consumable.

Reminds of the world sprint coaches trying to get there hands on Jamacian yams due to the amazing results of Jamacian sprinters as a potential reason for the advantage. No one has found the silver bullet yet but I bet there is something in the yam that helps with athletic performance and helps with NBE.

[AbiDrew85]

Oh, I just realized this thread was all male. Too bad what happened with wahaika. He doesn't deserve that kind of negative response. Well, any female that comes across this should know that steroidal saponins are especially good for them. Or straight males who aren't taking phytoestrogens and want testosterone. They don't give men with normal hormones moobs.

Giggle. That's because it's actually not. Thanks for recognizing my femaleness

As for Wahaika... He doesn't probably deserve Luxy's attack, no. But he did attack me first and she merely jumped a little too rabidly to my defense.

Also. tibetan and Luxy AFAIK are both genetic XX biologically complete girls. I'm the only ugly one here.

[AbiDrew85]

Just because something is poorly understood, especially it's mechanism of action doesn't suggest that real world results are not valid are to be withdrawn. Imperical evidence suggests there is something to it and that it seems to have a synergist effect with PM, BO, Placenta, FG, SP and even Clover. However it compliments things, it just seems to work and fortunately, is an inexpensive and relatively safe consumable.

Reminds of the world sprint coaches trying to get there hands on Jamacian yams due to the amazing results of Jamacian sprinters as a potential reason for the advantage. No one has found the silver bullet yet but I bet there is something in the yam that helps with athletic performance and helps with NBE.

See. I didn't realize that WY was in itself giving results. Or even that results gotten with plans involving WY were at all in part due to WY. I assumed the plan would have worked just as well without WY. I did not know about steroidal saponin's increasing receptivity.

I was asking that very question. And now that it's been answered, (Thanks again Joe!) I will start taking that effect into consideration in the future. Before I didn't know what to suggest for girls needing a boost to receptivity. Now I do. If Wahaika had just explained this to me the first time I asked him, none of what's happened since would have taken place.

I'm not sure at this time that I'll be adding WY. I'm not sure I need it. I'm already quite receptive. But even greater receptivity certainly has an allure to it.

[surferjoe2007]

He may only know that for some reason it works, i.e. somehow it has an estrogen-like effect in the end. Most studies and other sources don't give much more info than that either. And really that's enough. But then I found a study on unregulating hormones and several non-study sources about using fenugreek, goat's rue and shatavari in both genders for sexual/hormonal reasons that somehow matched the gender using them. And I found that the most abundant active substance in both fenugreek and wild yam is diosgenin.

[Doll]

WY is what gave me my first growth spurt (pc cream). I guess some bodies can take it as diosgenin while others can't. I am just happy to be able to get an rx for the lab converted version. Now some women claim to have used it alone for their meno issues and breast growth was an unexpected side effect.

A Wild Yam PC cream isn't the same as taking regular Wild Yam. I've always heard that Wild Yam isn't converted into progesterone within the body, but I will continue to think otherwise, or else it wouldn't be used with success. However, what makes the PC creams so effective is that the Wild Yam is already converted into progesterone in a lab before it is put into a cream. So even if wild yam is successful in some programs, I think as far as its progesterone content, PC is a much more potent.
Like surferjoe2007 said:
"So wild yam is helpful. Wild yam is not progesterone and progesterone, even progesterone synthesized from wild yam, is not wild yam."

Also, I'm not sure what Wahaika bases his dislike for red clover on, but for me it has worked quite well. I've also been told that hops wouldn't work without taking menohops, and yet that has also still given me great results. There is so much to NBE that either isn't understood or is popularly misunderstood. But from what I've seen and my own experience, if it's a popular NBE herb, then it must have worked for someone somewhere down the line, and shouldn't be written-off.

When I first joined, wild yam was still somewhat popular, and by the time I'd come back from my hiatus, it had become "a waste of money". Which is why I never fully believed that it was useless in the first place. =_=

[TibetanPrincess]

WY is what gave me my first growth spurt (pc cream). I guess some bodies can take it as diosgenin while others can't. I am just happy to be able to get an rx for the lab converted version. Now some women claim to have used it alone for their meno issues and breast growth was an unexpected side effect.

A Wild Yam PC cream isn't the same as taking regular Wild Yam. I've always heard that Wild Yam isn't converted into progesterone within the body, but I will continue to think otherwise, or else it wouldn't be used with success. However, what makes the PC creams so effective is that the Wild Yam is already converted into progesterone in a lab before it is put into a cream. So even if wild yam is successful in some programs, I think as far as its progesterone content, PC is a much more potent.
Like surferjoe2007 said:
"So wild yam is helpful. Wild yam is not progesterone and progesterone, even progesterone synthesized from wild yam, is not wild yam."

Also, I'm not sure what Wahaika bases his dislike for red clover on, but for me it has worked quite well. I've also been told that hops wouldn't work without taking menohops, and yet that has also still given me great results. There is so much to NBE that either isn't understood or is popularly misunderstood. But from what I've seen and my own experience, if it's a popular NBE herb, then it must have worked for someone somewhere down the line, and shouldn't be written-off.

When I first joined, wild yam was still somewhat popular, and by the time I'd come back from my hiatus, it had become "a waste of money". Which is why I never fully believed that it was useless in the first place. =_=

There's loads of confusion because otc PC is known as useless as its just wild yam so no progesterone, no matter what you hear, its ineffective(as per my Dr.) Now, lab created progesterone(synthetic) though its known as bio identical progesterone made from Mexican wild Yam is supposedly recognized by our bodies.

So, it seems, WY as an herb is effective, though not recognized as progesterone in the body, but when converted in a lab is recognized as some version of progesterone in the body. It seems either way you take WY, you get some kind of benefit though it is technically not real progesterone.

So what surferjoe said, its a saponin as an herb. but coverted, its a form of progesterone. I spoke with my pharmacy and they said what they do to it in the lab, converting it to progesterone is as close to bio identical you can get.

[AbiDrew85]

There's loads of confusion because otc PC is known as useless as its just wild yam so no progesterone, no matter what you hear, its ineffective(as per my Dr.) Now, lab created progesterone(synthetic) though its known as bio identical progesterone made from Mexican wild Yam is supposedly recognized by our bodies.

So, it seems, WY as an herb is effective, though not recognized as progesterone in the body, but when converted in a lab is recognized as some version of progesterone in the body. It seems either way you take WY, you get some kind of benefit though it is technically not real progesterone.

So what surferjoe said, its a saponin as an herb. but coverted, its a form of progesterone. I spoke with my pharmacy and they said what they do to it in the lab, converting it to progesterone is as close to bio identical you can get.

It can be converted in a lab to all kinds of hormones and hormonal analogs actually... And you CAN get what would be a prescription strength PC in some locales OTC as well. It's the same stuff as is in progesterone pills and gels and shots and whatever btw. The estradiol people get prescribed usually is derived from diosgenin as well, whether from WY or another source... *shrug* probably depends on what's cheapest at the time the lab bought up a bunch of the stuff to process into the various hormones they were tasked with converting it to.

Anyways. What it apparently does as an herb, as just diosgenin directly, is to deregulate at least some of the negative feedback loops allowing us to take our hormone levels higher than our bodies would otherwise permit. I imagine this is most useful for two groups of people: People who aren't quite as sensitive as they'd like, and people whose regulatory systems kick in too soon.