[Zormad]

I know right?! I've been wanting to try PM since I was like 16, but thought I would have to give up what is to me a small fortune lol. I would have started NBE years ago had I looked more into pricing than the effects. But alas, I'm here now and far more well read for it x)

[AbiDrew85]

I completely understand what you're saying, but I don't think I am. A liquid tincture or extract is simply the extract that has been soaked in some form of grain alcohol (this is why you'll always see an alcohol % in the ingredients). So with what I'm purchasing I can make my own tinctures, creams, capsules, etc. Also, the product you mentioned is for topical application on‌ly =\ it can't be taken orally which is an option I find mandatory. Like I said, my dad makes tinctures, my friends and I call him The Apothecary lol. I know my way around the art of holistic heqling, at least a little bit.

Not quite on both counts...

That product is B2B... Business to Business, and they are therefore EXPECTING the buyer to package it into topicals.

However, it's the exact same stuff, same extraction process, etc, as Ainterol's liquid extract, which I ALREADY use internally. I mix it with water and drink it.

The extraction process used for PM is not the typical alcohol soak, but rather it's first powdered, then it's soaked in propylene glycol (NOT an alcohol!), then it's put into an industrial shaker and heated to 60 C, and then they filter it, pack it, and store it.

This extraction process leads to MANY HUNDREDS OF TIMES greater potency than simply spray dried powder soaked in alcohol.

The reason is that the estrols we want from PM actually are attracted to the propylene glycol molecules at high temperatures and will combine to form a new super molecule, but when it returns to "room" temperature that super-molecule is too big to support itself any longer and breaks back down to the estrols and propylene glycol.

By the time it reaches us in our homes, when we consume it, our bodies separately digest and breakdown the propylene glycol from the estrols and we get our estrols almost directly in our bloodstream.

Part of why the MFG thinks it ought only be used topically, because it's just SO DANGED POTENT that they are, I think, concerned that consumers might OD themselves accidentally.

[Zormad]

o.0

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/substances/toxs...?toxid=240

Propylene glycol is jet fuel engine degreaser! While it is used in food and cosmetic production, it is classified as a toxic substance by the CDC. I try heavely to avoid that substance since I learned of it a few years ago. The FDA has approved a butt load of highly dangerous substances, while banning many natural cures. Any wonder Americans are in the poor state of health they are in? Lol.

Also you say that the propylene actually creates a new molecule?! This is even MORE of a problem than the issue of taking it orally (I honestly think they advise against it because of the propylene). Propylene glycol is a synthetic substance. It is a fact that a synthetic molecule and a natural molecule are structurally different at the molecular level. This means that the vitamin c you get from a pill and the vitamin c you get from an orange are molecularly different. Since vitamins and minerals work on a molecular, the two would HAVE to function in the body differently. My point is that I try to avoid synthetic substances as much as possible. While propylene glycol probably won't interfere with breast development, it is not good for overall health. Which is something I am aiming at along with big boobs x)

I really did not intend for this to turn into a debate (though I can never turn one down), I simply wanted to share what I found and ask a few questions...the ones you never bothered to answer btw lol. If you would like to order from the site you suggested, by all means, have at it, you are entitled to your opinion. But it is just an opinion, and it contradicts research I've myself done (not only on NBE, but optimal health through holistic practice). I understand that not everyone is here looking to become the epitome of health, but essentially I am. So please understand where we will differ in that regard.

I feel an air of animosity in your posts, but as Ihave seen this from you directed at many others, I will assume it is unintentional and fail to take offense =).

[Zormad]

I'm sorry AbbyDrew85, I didn't realize that second link was from the site I posted LOL. But as you can see I've found, what I think of as, better sources. But thanks for the info about propylene extraction! I will def stick to making my own.

[AbiDrew85]

I fail to understand what you've asked that I didn't answer? Anyways... to each their own I'm sure. Propylene glycol is only toxic in extremely high doses. There's plenty of "natural" "holistic" remedies that are the same... or worse. Licorice is toxic at seriously low doses, and yet that's completely natural.

I fail to comprehend how you're feeling any animosity from my posts... I'm certainly not feeling any as I'm typing for it to be able to poison my words.

(Personally, I'd prefer propylene glycol over alcohol... alcohol's liver toxicity is quite readily noted and extremely high. Besides, I just hate alcohol.)

The new super molecule is temporary btw... it only exists WHILE the mixture is being heated. It's not stable at anywhere near room temp and returns to being estrols and propylene glycol. What we end up with is a TON of the estrols we want, some propylene glycol, and some residual bits of the rest of the tubers that didn't get strained out fully. EDIT: And that site, at least, even has MSDS sheets and chemical analysis sheets posted... you're free to look for yourself and see that I'm not making stuff up here. At storage temperatures, the mixture reverts and you get a LOT of estrols packed into a tiny tiny amount of glycol.

It would be nice if there was a way to get the estrols extracted without resorting to anything toxic, alcohol or glycol, but so far no one has discovered any means to do so... and alcohol doesn't extract it nearly as well, so you end up with a LOT of alcohol per estrol and don't really eliminate all that much of the junk.

But as I said earlier... to each their own. I see fewer potential problems from liquid PM extracts than you seem to. And the liquid extract is well suited to my cycling plan. It'd take an AWFUL lot of capsules or powder to come close to my peak dose, or even my modal dose. And I have no real option for my "1 drop" dose with capsules. I could replicate it with loose powder, but it'd take too much math for my lazy brain.

It also remains true that the liquid extracts ARE the cheapest way... it's not my fault you've got your reservations about it that are in no way linked to price.

Anyways, sorry you seem to find my posts to have some sort of "animosity", but to me, it feels like you're the one who has animosity towards my attempt at sharing things I've found. Sorry you don't like liquid extracts of PM. They are still the least expensive.

[Zormad]

From first post: " Also, what are some effective herbs besides maca (thanks Doll!) and Ginko? I have read that PM is a phytoestrogen... I think. So what properties would my supplementing herbs need?" Thanks to dolls PM thread I have an answer, but couldn't help pointing it out

Condescension is a much better word than animosity; but like I said, I think it's unintentional.

Glycol: any of a class of compound belonging to the alcohol family. Propylene glycol IS an alcohol...only a synthetic one. The added potency comes from the alchemical process of heating the liquid. It's the same with THC is undergoes a molecular change when heated, sounds like what PM does. I wonder if a fatty based substance like flax oil would work better? I know THC extracts better that way. I will have to do some more research though.

It is not that I have a problem with liquid supplements. My first reply to you stated that I agreed with your statement. It is with the substance that is used for this particular method of extraction. I personally would rather take a lower dose, or research a better method. Ther IS one out there, just like there is a better option to breast implants but is this common knowledge in our country? All your herbal research hasn't shown you exactly how much of our preconceived medical notions are false? Why is any of what I'm saying so hard to swallow?

Google propylene glycol, the entire first page is sites telling you why you should not use it. Like you said, this is apples and oranges. You are saying you like it because it is potent. I am not disputing that, only saying it is extremely bad for you. This is not my opinion, but a scientific fact. Just because the FDA said something was OK, does not mean it is. Example: fluoride was used in Nazi Germany to keep concentration camp prisoners docile by calcifying the pituitary gland. Yet, fluoride is added to our tap water and given to us by dentists.

To each his own yes, but please realize there's an entire aspect to this whole NBE thing you are not concerned with, or maybe just haven't considered.

[AbiDrew85]

Haven't considered and not really concerned with both hehe.

Breathing normally is going to kill me some day... And everything has its potential for harm.

I did not realize that glycols were still alcohols... Grr. Just can't seem to get completely away from those nasty things.

Well. At least it has far less glycol than it would have grain alcohol if it was extracted that way.

As far as finding another way to extract it? Who's going to do that research? It sounds like your dad is just as stuck on alcohol extraction as anyone.

OK... and the not talking about the other stuff... I kinda just missed it? It's day 28. So this past week (well, about 4 days) has been a bit interesting as far as where the heck DID I leave that brain of mine? lol.

But yeah. I probably would have referred you to Doll's, or even my, threads. Though my thread doesn't fit with your stated goals of sticking purely to natural herbs and so forth. I use the, in my opinion, best tool for the job, whichever given job that is, and if sometimes that tool is a synthetic hormone, or a synthetic compound of some other sort... so what? I don't know if you'd even be willing to use progesterone creams... which is the only real effective way to increase your progesterone should that become necessary. USP Progesterone as used in the PC's we actually want is a synthetic hormone derived from plant sources. I also use USP Estradiol Valerate... another synthetic hormone, and only partly derived from plant sources.

Anyways... I guess from now on I'll just stay away from your threads since we do appear to have a major disagreement on exactly which means should be used and still considered "natural". To me, anything that involves the MAJORITY of the PRIMARY ACTIVES being either natural or from natural sources is natural. To you, it'd seem that ALL ingredients have to be 100% natural. Good luck.

[LookingForward2NBE]

The glycol is simply issued as a carrier for the active ingredients. The final herbal extract will be devoid of any glycol as confirm by residual analysis. Use of solvents like that is extremely common.

as for comments about 100% pure etc of certain brands, I've already posted as the difficulty in deciphering what that means. The great majority of the time, it just mean plain root, that's been dried and powdered and put into a capsule with no other herbs and maybe some flow agents to make it easier to encapsulate in larger automated encapsulator.

For the products that say its an extract.. What potency of extract and what extract are they refering too??? Cheaper lesser refined version can be only 20% of a certain active.. That said.. Is that the active that is leading some women to have breast enhancement?? Of all the products I've looked into, I've yet to find one that I feel comfortable buying with exception being ladies puraria 99 and only cause of chiyomilk.

As for the one the original poster referred to. How is it 100% purr when at the same it mentions they added other herbals thereby diluting the PM.

As for liquid, how can anyone make a statement that 1 drop is equal to 250mg ie half of 500 of 100% root powder?? For what active component?

Either way, I'd take a liquid tincture of one drop sublingual (to avoid 1st pass liver clearance that happens orally) over capsules any day but I'd very much perfer to validate claims and quality.

[Zormad]

Ooyyy veee...

@Abi:
My dad has no interest in extracting phytoestrogen lol. I'm a big girl, I will continue to research on my own, tis'n't hard if you're determined. And it often helps to use another country's search engine. Also, I don't have the same problem with grain alcohol as you do. But thanks! x) You too!


@LookingForward2NBE:
I will have to do my own research on whether that is true. I cannot find the ingredients for ainterol anywhere. And our country doesn't require all ingredients to be labeled. Only way to know for sure is make it yourself, or at least order from a site you have much experience with. But if that is true of propylene glycol, it is true of the others. Propylene is the only one I have a major issue with. I am buying my own bulk herbs to blend, I do not need anything besides the powdered root, that's precisely what I'm after. I am not buying a brand, I am buying from the distributor that sells to brands. Every powered form of anything that I have come across is called an extract...though there are no other ingredients. The only reason it is not as potent as liquid is because it hasn't gone through the alchemical process heating employs. I don't feel comfortable buying products either, that's why I'm making mine...and Chiyomilk's regiment is exactly what I've modeled my supplement plan after.
One of their powders is a blend...obviously I wasn't referring to this one. Which is why I linked the pure one. What do you mean "what active component"? If what you say is true, and liquid extract is 100% PM, that's THE ONLY ACTIVE COMPONENT. I plan on simply flushing with milk thistle once a month. And I'm dissolving the herbs in water...not taking capsules...big diff.

[jiberish]

Abi lays the science smack down!